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Level 70 Threat Cycles in 3.0

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Postby steadypal » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:56 pm

with all these seal judge nerfs is 1/2 judge still worth doing let alone staying in the 9696 rotation??

used the same or just to refresh judge every 20 sec?
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:43 pm

Regardless of nerfs, the 1/2 talent point will continue to be excellent as long as you are not hit capped, if for no other reason than that Judgement debuffs are no longer applied on a miss. Really the only threat-based alternative would increase seal damage by 3% or give you extra white attacks from Reckoning.

The rotation itself will be ideal even if judgements deal almost no damage.
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Massive threat issues since 3.0

Postby ssoykesha » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:03 pm

I honestly don't get why I've been having so many threat issues since 3.0.

My profile is here:

Since the Armory doesn't like updating anymore, let me say that I replaced the figurine w/ the Figurine - Empyrean Tortoise and my weapon is now Quickening Blade of the Prince I put Potency (+20 STR) on the sword.

I pull about 1200-1400 TPS, which is OK, but not great. My main issue is that in instances like Kara, my threat suffers, sometimes dropping down to about 500tps. On a couple of recent Kara PuGs, a paladin who was much worse off gear-wise had a really easy time in stealing threat from me, and I'm not really sure why. I use the 9696969 rotation, and just don't get it.

I have a KD, a Sun Eater, and a Cugel of Consecration in the bank, so if it's the weapon, I can swap it. Once i got uncritable, I swapped the KD for the current sword b/c the threat charts I looked at all pointed to it being the better threat weapon.

Something else that seemed really strange to me was that I had a much harder time tanking H Blood Furnace than I did tanking Mount Hyjijal post-patch. For some reason, I could tank the trash in MH w/o incident, but the stupid 3 pulls (which became 6-pulls thanks to our wonderful bouncy shield of doom) would wipe the floor with me. The bosses weren't an issue, but the trash was.

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Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:05 am

The only way to pull less than 2k TPS would be forgetting Righteous Fury.
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Postby ssoykesha » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:27 pm

LOL - i wish that were the case.. but it isn't. I'm anal retentive about keeping that up - and Pally Power wouldn't let me forget anyway.
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Postby Heracles » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:30 pm

Bouncey Shield of Doom is a non-issue, you have two choices:

1.) Just be really really careful when you throw the shield or

2.) Run up to the mobs and Hammer them in the face with the /cast Hammer of the Righteous /startattack macro.

I've found since 3.0 the shield does do weird things but with a little invention it can easily be worked around.
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Postby PizzaOfHut » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:19 pm

PsiVen, just wanted to express my thanks for your excellent theorycrafting, and wanted to add my 2cp.

When I first heard of the 96969 rotation and how to use it, I immediately began using it as often as I could in instances. A problem I noticed that may in fact be (relatively) unique to me is that when tanking multiple mobs (particularly more than 3 at a time), the healer(s) will immediately start popping big ginormous megaheals or will put a HoT on me and pull healer aggro immediately on mobs that aren't getting hit by Ye Olde Holy Frying Pan. In response, I "moved" the 9 part of the rotation ahead by 2 steps so that my 96969 looks a little something like this:

Prep SoV
0.0 Consecrate
1.5 HotR
3.0 HS
4.5 (free) Captain Pally
6.0 Judgement
7.5 HotR
9.0 Consecrate
10.5 (free) Regain proper timing
12.0 HS
13.5 HotR
15.0 Judgement
16.5 (free) see 10.5
18.0 Consecrate
19.5 HotR
21.0 HS
22.5 (free) see 10.5
24.0 Judgement
25.5 HotR
27.0 Consecrate
28.5 (free) see 10.5
30.0 HS
31.5 HotR
33.0 Judgement
34.5 (free) Captain Pally
36.0+ Continuation of pattern until mobs are dead

You'll notice how whenever I encounter a "free" space where I am not using Captain Pally, I am regaining the proper timing of the rotation (on long enough fights, I will use a "free" period to reseal). I'm still not sure whether this need is precipitated by the fact that I am using a sequentially inferior rotation, or my sense of timing just happens to suck that much, but it is the only rotation I am able to use in PuGs without errant DPS ever pulling aggro, or even worse, healers pulling healer aggro right from the get-go. You can also tell that my variation of the 96969 lacks the symmetry of PsiVen's original.

Naturally, I'm thinking PsiVen's is the better rotation, but I'm left wondering how to deal with mobs that aren't hit by the first HotR. It's clear to me that the idiot Hunter who doesn't DPS the skull first needs a smack in the head and a kick in the ass, but what about the Priest who lands a heal on me at the first sign of ANY damage, and pulls healer aggro? Is there a pulling method all you expert maintankadins use to nail as many mobs as possible while sticking to PsiVen's 96969, do you tell the healers to not be so trigger happy, both, or something else entirely?

And I apologize in advance for derailing the thread.
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Postby cerwillis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:54 pm

Not 100% sure, but I believe that the pure rotation that you speak of is primarily for single-target boss tanking. I don't know how anyone would keep up a 96969 when tanking groups of 5+ mobs, as aggro and positioning are bound to break it from time to time.

/e waits for people to tell him he's wrong
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:14 pm

Cerwillis wrote:Not 100% sure, but I believe that the pure rotation that you speak of is primarily for single-target boss tanking. I don't know how anyone would keep up a 96969 when tanking groups of 5+ mobs, as aggro and positioning are bound to break it from time to time.

/e waits for people to tell him he's wrong

You're right. In an aoe situation you will maxize consecrate, HS, HotR uptime in that order.
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Postby Igrado » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:16 am

I haven't played in a while and am trying to get accustomed to the 3.0 changes. After reading PsiVen's OP, I made these charts of the threat cycle, which I printed out and keep at my computer. I thought I would share them, just in case anyone else finds them helpful.

Holy Shield Based

Consecrate Based
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Postby Saeverud » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:24 pm

Where would I find, or what is the better rotation when you get ShoR?
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Postby Tailon » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:15 am


i just hit 80 with my Paladin and know i want to switch to the Protection Tree. My questen there any Thread Cycle for Level 80? I see no Rotation with SotR in it. Or is this Skill just not worth using?
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Postby ruuden » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:15 am

Saeverud wrote:Where would I find, or what is the better rotation when you get ShoR?

All the (free) spots in the 70 rotation are ment for ShoR.
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Postby Anubisknight » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:24 am

So, at lvl80 (or after you get ShoR), your rotation would basically comprise of the following 3 mini-cycles:

Prep SoV

Mini-cycle 1
0.0 HS
1.5 HotR
3.0 Judgement
4.5 ShoR
6.0 Consecration

Mini-cycle 2
7.5 HotR
9.0 HS
10.5 ShoR
12.0 Judgement

Mini-cycle 3
13.5 HotR
15.0 Consecration
16.5 ShoR

Go to Mini-cycle 1.

Is this correct?
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Postby Arcand » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:22 am

The building block of the cycle is this:





Short = a 6-second cooldown, alternating between Hammer and Shield.
Long = a '9-second' cooldown, alternating between Holy Shield and Judgement.

The breaks can be actual breaks, or they're your chances to refresh a seal, cast a Hand, Holy Wrath, Exorcism, Avenger's Shield, scratch yourself or whatever.
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