Guilds with 2 Kara Teams

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Postby Sielanas » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:19 am

I guess I'm in a little different situation, my guild has 11 separate Kara runs and a Monday night catch-all/training run as well. Our runs arose out of groups that already existed and filled out somewhat naturally. The more experienced runs take along subs somewhat regularly when asked, and they also drop in on the new runs. A sense of general teamwork is needed, my guild did have a lot of conflict recently with the 3 25-mans and a lot of people pulling in different directions. We had a guild discussion and got it largely sorted, but I noticed that if someone wanted to swap they generally were expected to put a good effort into finding a replacement for a week or 2. Gear evaluation is done, but it's put out there that numbers are objective, and can be overcame with skill but only so far, so don't get hurt if you're told to gear up a little more.
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Postby Jaydin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:44 am

Sielanas wrote:I guess I'm in a little different situation, my guild has 11 separate Kara runs and a Monday night catch-all/training run as well. Our runs arose out of groups that already existed and filled out somewhat naturally. The more experienced runs take along subs somewhat regularly when asked, and they also drop in on the new runs. A sense of general teamwork is needed, my guild did have a lot of conflict recently with the 3 25-mans and a lot of people pulling in different directions. We had a guild discussion and got it largely sorted, but I noticed that if someone wanted to swap they generally were expected to put a good effort into finding a replacement for a week or 2. Gear evaluation is done, but it's put out there that numbers are objective, and can be overcame with skill but only so far, so don't get hurt if you're told to gear up a little more.


shit dood 11? impressive - i dont know if i could deal with 100 other 70s...
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Postby Jaydin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:49 am

Lore wrote:If you have enough people to run a 25-man raid, you have enough people to run 2 or 3 Karazhan groups. IMO the only guilds that are "killed" by having 10-man content before 25-man content are the ones who are unwilling to put in the necessary effort -- which is required to progress in 25-man content anyway. If you can't get 20 people to work together, how are you going to do it with 25?


what grinds my gears is trying to push onto 25 man content by mass recruiting...when only 15 people have their gear from kara. the rest of the guild is hurt by only having 1 kara run, and the experienced members still think its necessary for certain people to always in the friggin run

last week i ended up leading the tuesday night raid - we downed through opera, with only replacing 2 people who had to scoot. then we get to opera and despite my protests we replaced two more for people that needed gear off of the opera event - i had tried to keep the run as contained as possible so the "regulars" could start up their run later that week and get MORE people kara geared...

sometimes logic seems to evade people... :-(
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Postby Daedallus » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:54 pm

The nature of shifting to 10 and25 man content from 40 in the first place was disruptive of guilds that shot themselves up to ~ 50-55 people in order to make sure that they always had enough people to run bwl/aq40/nax. you have a few off specs, a ret paladin, a shadow priest, someone decided to let the Hunter spec survival. in spite of all this, you are successfull. perhaps not Nihilim successful. but as an average guild, you were up there. Much as you will tell me that its commitment and such are rewarded and you shouldn't need that many people, for the vast majority of guilds, that was reality. because people had real lives to attend to as well as raiding.

enter tbc, you have 50 people, some level slower, some level faster. pre-tbc content required 2 good tanks, of 50 people. it also required ~6 good healers. giver or take a few hybrids. now folks level up, the more hard core of those that have more time chomp on the bit to get into kara, that skims your best 10 players off the top, probably including your two tanks. off specs are pretty much shunted to the side, no room for less than optimal.

Finally you have enough for a second group, couple paladins of all things, repsec and step up from ret or holy, and are able to tank the zone. people from the first group are already progressing through the zone, they don't want to mess with thier group, and due to them being locked to the zone, they can't help the second group if its running on off days.

The people from group 1 and group 2, if its successfull are busy. there are no more skilled tanks, healers are tied up, and the other 30 people in the guild struggle to get keyed/geared as they catch up to 70, and find theres no spot for them int he first two groups, a 3rd group has no competent raid leader or theres not enough A) tanks, B) healers.

All games go through growing pains with expansions, and i'm happy for you if you are in a stable small guild that doesn't have any drama. But to flip it off as if it was actually good planning on blizzards part to completly change the raiding landscape in this fashion is and was for most guilds, nothing short of culture shock.
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Postby Lore » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:30 pm

I know full well what happened at the transition from 40-man to 10- and later 25-man content; I've been through it all. We were killing 5 bosses in Naxx just before TBC hit. I'll agree that some guilds may have exploded because of it, but I would be amazed if it was because the transition was handled properly by the leadership.

Changes in the game don't cause drama, people do. Change is merely a catalyst. Dealing with change properly is the sign of a strong guild.
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Postby Jaydin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:32 pm

Lore wrote:I know full well what happened at the transition from 40-man to 10- and later 25-man content; I've been through it all. We were killing 5 bosses in Naxx just before TBC hit. I'll agree that some guilds may have exploded because of it, but I would be amazed if it was because the transition was handled properly by the leadership.

Changes in the game don't cause drama, people do. Change is merely a catalyst. Dealing with change properly is the sign of a strong guild.


wtb strong guild >_<

seriously...ive always had...interesting...guild leaders, dating back to my emo clan leader for bf1942...every mood swing he had there was a new branch of the clan formed...there were a lot of branches
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Postby Lore » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:34 pm

Yeah I suppose one unfortunate aspect of WoW is anyone can form a guild if they want to :P
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Postby Jaydin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:46 pm

Lore wrote:Yeah I suppose one unfortunate aspect of WoW is anyone can form a guild if they want to :P


which isn't necessarily a bad thing...i just need to pay attention more and perhaps get lucky ^_^

or...lead my OWN MUAHAHAHAHA

okay sorry...need more caffeine...getting...sleepy
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Postby honorshammer » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:41 pm

Nich wrote:
Actually, the single biggest issue for us - keep in mind we tend to field between 2 and 4 Kara runs per week - is the lack of geared people, or people who're new to the instance. Between alts, raiders who barely ever raid due to scheduling, and 'non-raiders' who are basically friends of people in the guild and thus may not be geared, skilled, or good for much of anything... we have a few people who get frustrated with the lack of progress on some fights, generally from people making the same mistakes over and over again.




This sounds very much like where my guild is at.
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Postby kurros » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:06 pm

Lore wrote:IMO the only guilds that are "killed" by having 10-man content before 25-man content are the ones who are unwilling to put in the necessary effort -- which is required to progress in 25-man content anyway.


qft


It's ridiculous about how many people used to think that they just had to kill nightbane and gruul once and then they could get into the "easy" 25 man SSC.


If your b team has trouble clearing karazhan, they are not going to be very useful in a 25 man either.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby d077Z » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:15 am


If your b team has trouble clearing karazhan, they are not going to be very useful in a 25 man either.

I killed Gruul before I was even KEYED for kara... Mag was done at about the same time as Netherspite /Nightbane.

As for kara runs where at the stage where we roll on an off night (fri sat LATE sun(sometimes)) as such it's generally done that people have gravitated towards a team they like and roll that way.

(note that this is esp pronounced with our team who transfered as a 10 player kara team a while back.)
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