Too much damage

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Too much damage

Postby Bemm » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:13 pm

Recently due to this site I have gained vast improvement to my tanking ability, so much so that during a recent expansion in our guild I was offered a permanent tanking spot in raids. Yay me!

However, whilst raid tanking and even in heroics, it has been noticed by my other guildies that i am taking an inordinate amount of damage and therefore draining resources from raid healing onto me.

My gear has been upgraded in leaps and bounds since i've started tanking Kara, but i can't fault them in their observations, I am gettting absolutely mauled by mobs and bosses, as a healer i would nitice druids get hit for 10-20% of their dmg, and warrs for 20-25, but i seem to be constantly being hit for 30-40% dmg, this is not spike dmg, but normal, Whilst i understand that pally's do have a smaller health pool i don't understand what more i can be doing to further mitigate the damage i take?

My guild and I are only just learning about end game tanking with pally's and regardless of my enthusiasm towards it i fear they may get disenheartened,

In short, how can i further mitigate my damage, or how can we learn as a raid to deal with that damage?

Armoury link for gear:-

- http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... lde&n=Bemm

Cheers!

-Bemm
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Postby Sereen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:36 pm

I'm pretty sure the Breastplate of Kings armorsmith line is a line of DPS plate. Why are you using it? There's a breastplate that drops in heroic Mech I think... I'm not sure what it's called though. <.<

It doesn't look like you are uncrushable, either. I figure you're fairly early into Kara, because if you were far enough in to be tanking Prince, then you would have been raped by the crushings. That could be why you are seeing such a large difference in the damage taken. Warriors reach uncrushable without thinking, and Druids don't have to worry about it, with their 50bazillion health and armor.
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Postby Silandra » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:38 pm

Unless my math is wrong, you're not uncrushable... you're 6.15% off. Getting that outta the way would go a long way to reducing the damage you take ^^; Well, for bosses, anyways. Your dodge looks a little low :( I've no real easy answer for you except for get a handful of upgrades - the quick few being the boots of elusion or battlescar boots and a tanking ring, as it appears you've only one. Maybe the badge one?
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Postby Bemm » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:45 pm

Hey cheers for your help!

I know the breastplate of kings is dps, but it's the best i can do till i can replace it with the mech one.

As for the rings, i can choose between Violet eye, deth'Remar's ring of defence and ring of the silver hand.

The felsteel helm i am replacing with Helm of the stalwart Defender as soon as possible.

On a further note, i know i am not yet uncrushable, but it's not the crush damage that is the problem, infact i've gone through most my fights without being crushed, my problem is i'm taking far too much damage on my normal hits. my armour with dev is just above 15k, and am getting just above 15k hitpoints buffed up,

So from here i can try and focus a little more on dodge and replaceing the couple leftover items (Boots, Chest) but other then that am i doomed to take more damage?

-Bemm
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Postby Sereen » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:25 pm

I think you need a bit more unbuffed HP, personally.

If I remember right (I'll be damned if I go back to the armory today :P ) that you are about 11k unbuffed? try aiming for 12, if you can avoid losing too much avoidance.

Uncrushable doesn't really matter until you try to take on Prince.

Just replace the pieces that you need to replace, and you'll see that the marginal boosts you get in stam and tank stats will lower the damage intake by quite a bit.
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Postby Lore » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:58 pm

Try and have warriors keep Thunder Clap up on whatever mob you're tanking if possible, it helps a ton.
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Postby Donjuan » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:00 am

I have noticed this too, what you are talking about. We seem to get raped so much easier by normal hits than a warrior does forget about crushes , in equal type gear and stats. Its real annoying to see when warriors are tanking that their health bar barely budges in the first few moments of a trash pull, but for a Paladin they need healing almost straight away. Blizzard really need to look in to this. Its the thing that is really holding us back imo.
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Postby Bemm » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:44 pm

Okay this is what i have so far

As far as items are concerned, the replacements i need, i'm turning my breastplate of the righteous into my tanking set, sacrificing 16 stam and 200 armour for 19 defence, any other items, helm all i can do is wait (unless someone on perenolde horde can craft :lol: ) boots i've got to hit up Heroic mana tombs or get epics from kara.... so not much really to be done there.

After talking to guildies, we are going to try and have more co-ordination with healers, normally we would go with 2 healers on the main tank and one for raid healing, and whilst we find that i have been taking bigger hits, i don't take the spike damage, nor do i ever really need more then one big heal, so for next time, one healer will be dedicated to me, one to off tank and spot heals and one for raid healing, this way we won't have 3 healers wasting mana on me by throwing out big heals at the same time.

For my part i will be going into boss fights equipped with runes of warding and shielding... saoking 4400 points of damage at the start of the fight is always helpful, i know warrs don't like as they inhibit rage, but we don't have that problem, for us it will soak those first 1-2 hits...

If anyone else has any other ideas to throw out there let us know!

-Bemm

(ps btw, by now you'll have noticed that my armoury link isn't really useful all the time as i respec/change gear almost every day of the week... oh well! :? )
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Postby Eloff » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:43 am

Vendor your ring of the silver hand. The other two rings are vastly superior.

If you have an epic mount, you could get friendly with Netherwing and go after Boots of Ascendance. Don't be fooled by their green color, they are awesome.

Everything else looks fine.
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Postby Ills » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:34 am

I've noticed that the healers' perception of you has a lot to do with how much damage you seem to take.

If they think that you're squishy, they may complain about it, regardless of how much damage you're taking compared to the warriors.

One guild run of Kara that I did (I was MT), the OT warrior kept dying. This was at the beginning of the instance, btw. The healers whispered me that he might be too squishy to be tanking here, as he was relatively new. When I looked at his gear, I saw that he was mostly in good tanking blues.

I commented that his gear is comparable to what everyone started out with here, but that everyone else's gear is better. After assigning him a designated healer, there was no more trouble.
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Postby Eitan » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:54 am

If you're going to be a dedicated tank in raids you need to respec. That will help quite a bit. Most paladin tanks are 0/49/12, but 0/38/23 seems to be popular too although it's not my spec. From proper tanking talent selection you are missing out on so many defensive abilities it's not funny.

On a gear front you would benefit from buying some quality gems. Get the 12 stamina gems instead of the 9. Drop non-stamina gems used just to get weak socket bonuses.

Gear to replace ASAP:
Cloak: get a devilshark and an agi or dodge enchant.
Chest: get the mechanar bp and 150 health enchant
Boots: several options come to mind but if flesh beast's or boots of elusion are available, snap them up.
Ring 2: elementium band of the sentry

Hope those bits help!
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Postby Daedallus » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:03 am

Eitan wrote:If you're going to be a dedicated tank in raids you need to respec. That will help quite a bit. Most paladin tanks are 0/49/12, but 0/38/23 seems to be popular too although it's not my spec. From proper tanking talent selection you are missing out on so many defensive abilities it's not funny.

On a gear front you would benefit from buying some quality gems. Get the 12 stamina gems instead of the 9. Drop non-stamina gems used just to get weak socket bonuses.

Gear to replace ASAP:
Cloak: get a devilshark and an agi or dodge enchant.
Chest: get the mechanar bp and 150 health enchant
Boots: several options come to mind but if flesh beast's or boots of elusion are available, snap them up.
Ring 2: elementium band of the sentry

Hope those bits help!


100% agree on the gems. I run accross this one all the time, not just in tanks but in all classes. Being a tank for your guild requires you to spend the gold on the Gems and enchants and glyphs that give you an edge. 30 hps a gem, spread accross your gear can quickly add up to a good 5-10% of your total hps. that 90g glyph on your helm is a good % of your total mitigation.

raiding isn't cheap, and even if you plan to upgrade whichever piece in the near future, your raid cannot afford for you to go in with less than the best equipment you can get your hands on, that means the $50g gems, the 200g enchants, and spending the time working on the factions that will get you that extra 1% mitigation or 200 hps.

myself, i've been 500g from my epic flying for over a month. problem is i keep upgradeing my gear and have to re-supply myself with solid stars of elune, glyphs, ect. I finally got curator to drop my Wrynn dynasty pants last night, and i almost groaned about dropping another 300g on gems and some nethercleft leg armor.
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Postby Tumeric » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:20 pm

Daedallus wrote:
Eitan wrote:If you're going to be a dedicated tank in raids you need to respec. That will help quite a bit. Most paladin tanks are 0/49/12, but 0/38/23 seems to be popular too although it's not my spec. From proper tanking talent selection you are missing out on so many defensive abilities it's not funny.

On a gear front you would benefit from buying some quality gems. Get the 12 stamina gems instead of the 9. Drop non-stamina gems used just to get weak socket bonuses.

Gear to replace ASAP:
Cloak: get a devilshark and an agi or dodge enchant.
Chest: get the mechanar bp and 150 health enchant
Boots: several options come to mind but if flesh beast's or boots of elusion are available, snap them up.
Ring 2: elementium band of the sentry

Hope those bits help!


100% agree on the gems. I run accross this one all the time, not just in tanks but in all classes. Being a tank for your guild requires you to spend the gold on the Gems and enchants and glyphs that give you an edge. 30 hps a gem, spread accross your gear can quickly add up to a good 5-10% of your total hps. that 90g glyph on your helm is a good % of your total mitigation.

raiding isn't cheap, and even if you plan to upgrade whichever piece in the near future, your raid cannot afford for you to go in with less than the best equipment you can get your hands on, that means the $50g gems, the 200g enchants, and spending the time working on the factions that will get you that extra 1% mitigation or 200 hps.

myself, i've been 500g from my epic flying for over a month. problem is i keep upgradeing my gear and have to re-supply myself with solid stars of elune, glyphs, ect. I finally got curator to drop my Wrynn dynasty pants last night, and i almost groaned about dropping another 300g on gems and some nethercleft leg armor.


Totally agreed here. You cant afford to not spend the gold to have your best possible gear available. Glyphs / Gems / and Enchants are the quickest way to turn the tide in your favor.

I maintanked Kara last night on my guild's first ever kara run with 1 main healer ( pally ) and a Shadow priest to keep raid hp/mana up. By far not the best idea being we only had 1 shackle and 1 healer but 3 tanks. I was taking some decent hits from Horse mobs on way to attumen and the down time was attrocious ( repops right as we engaged Midnight so all of them ran straight to us and wiped us. We started over now with a little more experience and a new strategy. I would turn undead as a 2nd CC for the big 5 man pulls and it went much smoother. Had a warrior offtank as well as a DPS druid that offtanked. Got to midnight more quickly than before and started in. Druid tanked Midnight and i picked up attumen since he is immune to taunt holy damage is a nice way to peal off a healer at the spawn. Went so easy i almost scoffed at the instance as a whole, warrior stayed with me mass disarming and thunderclapping for me.

Attumen downed + all trash to moroes and we start in again 1 CC and 4 undeads ( Holy priest, Ret pally , Prot war , Dps war) Shackled the Ret pally DPS'ed down the holy priest, i feared DPS war and healer feared Prot war. We made it to 30% on moroes before it was too much for a Single pally to heal with all the garrotes his mana was dead very quickly. the last hurrah with LoH bubbling everything we made it to 22% before complete wipe. Being it was 4am and i had work @ 8:00am we called it a night in hopes of taking him tonight.

And before tonight i hope i can run 3x CFR heriocs + a mech so i can get my Libram as i stand with Holy shield i am @ 87.85% avoidance raid buffed. So if i get my Libram that will put me that much closer and who knows maybe ill get 5k shatar rep for my shield while i am at it.

Sorry if this is a long jumbled mess Just wokeup, over slept for work, and my brain isnt completely functioning. ( hit in the head too many times by moroes last night) :shock:
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:41 pm

Well what warriors are your healers used to healing? We have to see their armories too so we can compare their gear to yours. If they have vastly better gear than you then of course it's going to appear to the healers that you take more damage, because you do.

I have the exact opposite: my healers complain about healing our undergeared warriors because they are much less geared than I am.

Just as an aside, I find it depressing how many posts/threads on this board are taken up by the fight against public perception of Paladin tanks. Hearing what you guys have to go through to make people accept us as tanks just makes me sad... And it makes me have horrible flashbacks to when I was a member of a "progression" guild, and not leading the raid. Spamming FoL in AQ40 just so I could build DKP to spend on Avenger's was the saddest time of my WoW career.
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