New to heroics - any advice

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New to heroics - any advice

Postby Rhodair » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:22 am

back story | I haven't really posted here much, but this was the big site that I was always reading and what helped me enormously with getting all the 5 man gear to start me off. I got lucky in finding a guild that actually has a retiring tankadin and were impressed with me in a couple tempest keep runs I happened to get in with them and invited me to offtank. I've only done a week with them so far in Kara and it was great. I knew all the fights before from my priest main. I was defaulted some pants and boots that're no Boots of Elusion but better than Flesh Beast's. Then did Gruul's and got a damn lucky roll and got my shoulders.

Now, tonight a warlock friend of mine invited me to go to a pug heroic. This was my first heroic experience and it was in Blood Furnace. Group was me, warlock, rogue, enhancement shaman and holy paladin. The first couple pulls were horrible because the enemies kept seeing through the rogue's stealth when she was trying to sap. I got them off her with a shield toss, and it felt like I'd fly down whenever there was more than one guy. Stuns helped lots. Sapping was a problem for a couple more pulls, so I just had my warlock friend seduce and then banish. This worked well for a while, but I'd keep dying whenever the seduce would get resisted or give out early. The whole time, the group was just like "daaamn man, you're taking more damage than any warrior I've seen before." I was scrolling through eavesdrop after every fight and it was anywhere from 2300 to 3300 hits. There was only me to buff my health so it was only above 12k. We decided to not risk anymore after just clearing the room after the stairs where you start to descend again cause I was already at 55% durability at that point. Here's a link to my profile:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... &n=Rhodair

I'm curious, am I still undergeared even for heroics? Perhaps I was working too much on avoidance and not enough on armor and block value? Could it have been the paladin healer? There were a lot of times it felt like I was going 6 to 8 seconds without a heal, but I know my mind speeds up many times when I'm fearing death lol. It still didn't feel like he was totally on the ball, but I don't want to be blaming others and frankly my confidence has taken a slight blow. I just wanted to ask for the input of other tankadins cause right now I feel like Kara is easy mode compared to heroics, and I thought it should be the other way around. Sorry for the long post and thanks for any advice or criticism I may receive.
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Postby Rhodair » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:39 am

After I thought more, perhaps this should've gone in the gear section? My bad.
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Postby Diocaska » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:26 am

I'm fairly new to heroics. Two full clears of Mech, one full Ramps, one Ramps without the dragon, and a full Underbog.

Maybe it was down to it being a PuG? I always prefer going with 75% people i've grouped with before. My first ever Mech run went horrible. I took tonnes of damage, and died in seconds.

Got my gear up, and tried it again.

Your gear is about the same when I sucessfully cleared Mech. So just try grouping with people you know, and you'll be fine.
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Postby Ignus » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:33 am

as a tank, and a paladin tank especially, you need to be able to seperate when the wipe was your fault and when it was someone else's fault. We have a ton of control over the fight as the tank, so we will natrually blame ourselves. sometimes you need to be able to step back and go "hey, that person made the fatal mistake, not me" just hold your ground, if you are sucking and causing wipes, even though you know you can do it, just write it off as a bad night.

Do learn from your mistakes though, just don't assume you are always at fault. Your troubles probably stem from poor co-ordination.
If you invest all of your talents, all of your gear, all of your knowledge and skill into tanking, you should be the best tank.
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Postby Rhodair » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:15 am

Yeah, I was really feeling like it may of just been the healer. I pride myself on being extremely good with my avenger's shield and consecrate and I didn't break a single one of the few saps we got off nor any seduces. I also gave the healing paladin some excellent chances to heal like when I got to 1k health, stunned the orc, drank a healing pot, got to 1K again, and THEN I got a heal >.< He had all 6 seconds of my stun and then some and was just twiddling his thumbs.

I guess I just felt like it might've been me since they were so... vocal about the damage I was taking. Also, I've got this horrible habit of blaming myself before anyone else like "if only I'd lay on hands..." but it shouldn't be like that for just trash.

I just happened to see another post on this site, mentioning how mobs in Blood Furnace used to hit for around 5k after the first or second boss, and it just got nerfed to over 3k and how they used to just give up after the first or second boss cause the damage of the mobs got rediculous. Maybe it's just an instance where I need a more constant stream of heals than once every 8 seconds ;P Cause with CC and only one on me, 3k hits between dodges and parrys aren't something impossibly hard for a healer.

I'll try starting with underbog or mech and see how those ones go. I'd like to try Blood Furnace again, but with my resto druid pal. Thanks again for the recharge 8)
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Postby adese » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:36 am

Rhodair wrote:I just happened to see another post on this site, mentioning how mobs in Blood Furnace used to hit for around 5k after the first or second boss, and it just got nerfed to over 3k and how they used to just give up after the first or second boss cause the damage of the mobs got rediculous. Maybe it's just an instance where I need a more constant stream of heals than once every 8 seconds ;P Cause with CC and only one on me, 3k hits between dodges and parrys aren't something impossibly hard for a healer.


Before 2.1, Heroic Blood Furnace was very evil. The mobs you are referring to the big demons that make up the final 3 pulls before the last boss. They would hit me for 5-6k easy. It got to the point where if we didn't have a Hunter or Warlock to CC them, we would just stop after the 2nd boss because it wouldn't be worth the repair bills.
Last edited by adese on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mahale » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:45 am

frankly for me in heroics I've had problems with paladin and druid healers... for some reason I think that many of them might have just respeced from feral/ret, but also the way they work doesn't seem to match heroics too well. I perfer shamans and priests for big heals.
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Postby Luftblase » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:44 pm

To the tankadin above me
Druids have no problem healing heroics. I have a resto druid (Spektrum on the server Thrall) and have run MANY heroics without a wipe. You may have just gotten bad luck in your healers.

OP
It may have been your healer. I am new to the tankadin scene, but I have read many a thing, and your gear looks to be on par with the warriors I've run with when I started heroics on my druid. You might want to stick to running with people you know, PUG heroics can turn very ugly very quickly.
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Postby Phaex » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:03 pm

Its not like you are taking that much more damage than a equally geared warrior. They have a 4% better defstance, thats all.
It always looks like starting protadins go down like clothies, because they have a ton less hp than warriors. Its those damn 1.5k base + commanding shout.
This makes it abit harder for your healer, it limits him by alot. It seems like everything is balanced around warriors hp pool :)
If your healer sucks, many heroics can become a nightmare, especially when you don't bring heavy cc.
I had the same problems back then because of improper item/enchant choices, and fixed it asap.
I did mine with a resto druid friend, just filling up 3 dd spots everytime. And it was really smooth after the first few starting problems.

Do not focus on any avoidance. Fill any gemslot with stamina things to balance this heavy issue.
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Postby Igrado » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:16 am

(Note: I didn't look at your gear)
There were a lot of times it felt like I was going 6 to 8 seconds without a heal


If this is true, this was a significant part of the problem.

If you died, and your Holydin wasn't spamming heals on you, it was his fault you died (assuming he wasn't silenced/stunned/interrupted). If he WAS spamming heals on you, then it was one of several other problems.
low/slow DPS
low threat (holding back DPS)
poor CC
poor tank stats, or
poor healing stats/experience

I'm a holydin and let me say that healing heroics is a lot different from regular runs. If he was in fact going 6+ seconds without while you were taking damage, he flat out wasn't doing his job. Either that or he was getting interrupted/silenced.

When I first healed heroic Mech, the tank died many times from those Charged Fist guys. I didn't have the +healing, the experience, and the groups were bad at interrupting it. Now-a-days, we're more succesful, but they still intimidate me and it's still a challenging run to heal.

End of it all, it was your first heroic and a PUG. You were pretty much doomed :D
Best of Luck!
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Postby Rhodair » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:38 am

Igrado wrote:End of it all, it was your first heroic and a PUG. You were pretty much doomed :D
Best of Luck!


Yeah, no kidding ;P

Before, I was not wanting to point fingers to anyone else, but being I am a healer on my paladin, priest and druid, that healer needs work. There were sometimes I think he was getting distracted because we had a rogue and enhancement shaman and they kept taking cleave damage or some kind of damage and he would heal them over me (maybe because they were his guildies?) It felt like he was thinking he could just wait to heal me when I was around 3/4ths health and then I'd get double hit some 3k shots. A second or 2 later, he'd start casting. There was not a single moment of spamming, which is certainly what I would've done, especially as paladin. I didn't want to tell him how to heal though cause he made it sound like he'd had a good background of heroics and was so adamant about my survivability being the issue. Looking back, I needed to take charge and either set him straight or left earlier if he wasn't open to suggestion.

Oh and he was never silenced or interupted. That I'm sure of... it was 4am in the morning though *shrug* He sounded awake on vent though; he just didn't heal like it.
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Postby Gillman » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:32 pm

I've run 2 Heroics, first one full clear with Priest and good c/c and it went well, second was with a Pally healer and poor c/c... here is my gear:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... &n=Gillman

I'm about 1k more HP and and a couple items better then when I ran my last Heroic, socketing with +12Sta will help, but I'm still about 5% shy of uncrushable, so I can't re-socket yet :(

The key is a good healer and good c/c if you get beat on by more then 2 mobs you are dead and 2 will chew you up fast... the AoE tanking seems to be gone once you hit Heroics.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:49 pm

Gillman your signature is kind of cool, now make it smaller.

By kind of cool, I mean it looked cool out of the corner of my eye, and then I saw its majesty. Ten seconds later I was bored.
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Postby Tresjynn » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:23 am

Igrado wrote:End of it all, it was your first heroic and a PUG. You were pretty much doomed :D

Do I just have a really good server or something? In nearly every single heroic I do (that is, when I don't have an invitation to tank one within a few seconds of logging in), I PUG it through the LFG tool or listening in LookingForGroup. And these runs are almost invariably successful and (usually) wipe-free.
Two accounts, two tankadins! Raaar.
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Postby Maranus » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:43 am

Vanifae wrote:Gillman your signature is kind of cool, now make it smaller.

By kind of cool, I mean it looked cool out of the corner of my eye, and then I saw its majesty. Ten seconds later I was bored.


All hail Vanifae, queen of doom, queen of gloom.
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