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[25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

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Re: Twins (25 hc) door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby kanst » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:19 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I personally don't like splitting the raid's color because my raid's makeup doesn't support it. We don't have 2 consistent holy paladins -- we have one of each flavour, so requiring a raidwall AND aura mastery for every vortex is untenable for us.


Do you have ret pallies? make them spec for Div Sac. Our strategy is to the point that we rarely ever wipe from anything other then DCs.

Two soakers, me as prot and a bear druid
two tanks, class doesnt matter
5-7 heals, depending on healer competence that night, normally go with 6
two of the heals are holy pallies
Split dps evenly, we try to split it up so relevent debuffs are on the right mobs. Our demo lock keeps "scorch" on both so it muffs his dps up

First Vortex, one holy pally AM+ DivSac 2nd Vortex other pally AM+Div sac, 3rd Vortex Ret Div Sac, if we have a fourth we have another ret or myself do it

We pop heros on the first shield, and personal CDs on the second, although shields are rarely an issue.

The strategy isn't random at all, as long as your dps doesnt suck shields arent an issue whatsoever. The boss normally dies right before or right after his 6th ability.
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Re: Twins (25 hc) door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Xequecal » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:47 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:I personally don't like splitting the raid's color because my raid's makeup doesn't support it. We don't have 2 consistent holy paladins -- we have one of each flavour, so requiring a raidwall AND aura mastery for every vortex is untenable for us.

Also, having the entire raid be one color means we only need one tank, which removes a healing target, adds a DPS, and allows us to feed the raid orbs of a single color. We have 2 hunters attuned white, with the rest of the raid black, so no one's DPS is gimped from having to wear Mother gear and the like (although that's certainly viable).

Tank healing requirements on this fight don't seem terribly stringent -- even tanking both angels; I typically swap in some threat bits, and I've tanked it at least once in my happyfunheroic set (which I wear during FC). I like reducing the number of tanks we bring to fights whenever possible because it allows us to add a dps and removes a point of healing that splits healer attention.

I certainly agree that if your raid supports DG/AM for every vortex it's a better way to go. Not everyone has that luxury. :]

And it's classified as "bad" shield because it's non-trivial in a single-colored raid.

There are several approaches to the door strat, even including where to position the raid (we pile people in the corner niche just to the left of the actual doorway). It'll depend a lot on your raid comp and healers.


A protection Paladin CAN DS/DS the Vortex of the add he's tanking, they don't melee while casting or channeling vortex, just taunt 1 sec before the vortex ends and then click DS off after it's over. You could have him spec 11/53/7 for the fight so he can Aura Mastery too. That would let you DS/DS/AM the first two vortex and then you'd just have to get lucky and not have #5 be a vortex, even if it is and some people die you could probably push them down before the next ability.
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Re: Twins (25 hc) door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:36 pm

Xequecal wrote:A protection Paladin CAN DS/DS the Vortex of the add he's tanking, they don't melee while casting or channeling vortex, just taunt 1 sec before the vortex ends and then click DS off after it's over.


Of course, this only works if you have two tanks. We don't bring two tanks to this fight.

Back on topic to the op: the fight is not really "random" -- you're going to have to deal with heals and vortices no matter what approach you use, be it door, compass points, or whathaveyou. The major differences between the strats is where you put the bulk of execution responsibility for success.

Many people like the door strat because it changes the fight from being very movement based to CD managment / intelligent target switching based. Managing CDs and hitting "tab" every so often is certainly easier, so once you've got the DPS to break off-color shields and your healers know how to handle the vortex, it's really quite easy.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Belloc » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:29 pm

If you don't split the DPS between colors, they're going to heal.

Also, why only use 1 tank? You had to use more than one on Beasts and you probably used two on Jaraxxus. Anub will certainly require at least two. Seems kind of silly to drop one just for this fight, especially when it makes it easier.


If nothing else, I like Fafhrd's suggestion with the rogues and hunters being off color.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fafhrd » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:48 pm

Belloc wrote:If you don't split the DPS between colors, they're going to heal.


No, they're not. Especially not with a good bit of farming the earlier bosses. Our first 4 kills or so were with all the raid being and staying black the whole fight, and we're hardly the highest DPS guild in the world (or even on the server for that matter).

That being said though, they'll heal if 1 or 2 of our DPS are dumb and forget to switch on time, which we had plenty of, so we dealt with it by having 5-6 dps always be a different color. We preferred this to actually splitting the raid since if we split the raid we still have to heal through both types of vortices hitting half the raid each, whereas in this case we only need to heal through 1 type of vortex hitting the whole raid - spamming aoe heals and raidwalls for half the raid didn't seem any easier than just spamming them for the whole raid. Any 5-6 dps would work for being the minority color as long as they're good DPS - rogues and hunters work well because they can usually cloak of shadows and deterrence through the black vortices without needing healing. Pallies, mages, DK and Warriors could probably work too although some of those probably won't have survival cooldowns for the 2nd vortex.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Belloc » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:36 am

Also, you don't want mages iceblocking on this fight while it is still bugged (iceblock removes the damage boost against the opposite color boss, but not the absorbsion effect).
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:48 am

Ok, since yesterday was the first time we reached that boss (been wiping a lot before that, and this week was our first guild kill of beasts, jaraxxus, champions), and we had only 3 attempts left, we chose the more simple tactic with the doorway, not because I prefer it more in terms of execution, but because it was more simple to understand for those 5 minutes we had. But now I have some questions about the fight in general.

In the doorway tactic - well... how do you survive the balls? I mean, in the very center of the doorway there is a ball spawner, and in the corners - 2 more. Aren't these 2 also having the chance to spawn the balls in the direction of the raid? But even if they always have the same direction of ball spawns (and you can somehow fix it for them not to hit the raid), then we have the central spawner, which the whole raid is positioned on. WE started the fight, 5 sec lataer half raid was dead. Don't know if every spawner has a fixed timer for spawning balls, but if that central one spawns 2 white balls, it's screwed. Especially coupled with the Touched by X dot and with some Vortexes. Do you occasionally eat the 15k blows on 23 people? Cause it seems totally wrong, but I can't see a possible way to avoid it.

Also - for the splitting the dps tactic - does it also work in the doorway? And if you DON'T do it the doorway way:
-where do you position yourselves so that you don't have to worry about the raid getting hit by balls?
-how do you soak them actually, during vortex (this question is valid for doorway tactic too)-during vortex there are LOTS, LOTS of balls, ain't the chance for the soakers to miss a ball pretty huge? (it's big enough with the doorway tactic, where they cover 180 degrees, and seems absolutely certain to happen in the other tactic, where you need to cover 360 degrees).

Sorry for the terribly worded questions,just can't think of a way to express it more clearly now.
Also one final question - is the Touched by Light/Dark debuff an AoE debuff,or it damages only you? And the Surge of Light/Darkness - is it a raid-wide, 100%-of-the-time active damaging ability, or they cast it at some point? I am told it's single-target damaging debuff, but I don't think so. And if I'm correct - then doesn't it "annihilate" the raid? It can be removed by the person changing colors, but didn't the doorway method involve no movement at all? All in all, lots of unclear stuff for me here...
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:48 am

Belloc wrote:If you don't split the DPS between colors, they're going to heal.

Also, why only use 1 tank? You had to use more than one on Beasts and you probably used two on Jaraxxus. Anub will certainly require at least two. Seems kind of silly to drop one just for this fight, especially when it makes it easier.

If nothing else, I like Fafhrd's suggestion with the rogues and hunters being off color.


That's really strange, because we've been killing them with a single-colored raid for a few weeks now. We should have gotten them sooner than we did, but had raid attendance issues with Canadian Thanksgiving hijinks or something stupid.

Our 2 hunters are off-color; maybe we'll move the two rogues off-color next week too, as additional insurance for shield breaking. It hasn't been an issue so far, and as we get better at the fight it becomes even less of an issue, so perhaps why bother fixing what isn't broken. Also, occasionally we have a grand total of one rogue, so perhaps it matters very little.

I noted above why we bring as few tanks to a fight as possible: +1 dps, -1 heal target splitting healer attention. Bringing a spare tank when it's not necessary is always kind of stupid, no matter what the fight (we used to 2-tank gurtogg as well). With dual spec "Dropping a tank" is not exactly a big deal. Having 2 tanks for TA is only necessary if you have split color DPS due to threat reasons, and splitting color is only viable if you have sufficient paladins to DG/AM every single vortex. We don't, so our strat has to take our comp into consideration.

We could have our ret go 11 deep into holy for AM, I guess -- although last week's kill our holy left Conc Aura up, so AM didn't exactly do anything, so technically we don't even need AM for our strat at this point -- but then what happens when our flaky ass ret does't show, and our holy paladin has a training exercise?

We can do this fight with a single paladin in the raid. I'm not certain people dependent on multiple AM/DG could say the same.

A single color strat is a more stringent DPS requirement check, but far more lenient when it comes to raid makeup. I always like removing as many dependencies in a strat as possible, personally.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:24 am

Loras wrote:In the doorway tactic - well... how do you survive the balls? I mean, in the very center of the doorway there is a ball spawner, and in the corners - 2 more.


We pile the raid into the corner next to the door, and not in the door itself. There's one ball spawn that can be problematic if people aren't stacked correctly, but generally the raid will not eat off-balls if positioned here.

Loras wrote:Also - for the splitting the dps tactic - does it also work in the doorway?


Yes. More than a few people use this strat and have posted what they do in the thread above.

Loras wrote: And if you DON'T do it the doorway way:
-where do you position yourselves so that you don't have to worry about the raid getting hit by balls?


There's a lot of discussion and a few videos posted in the other TA thread on the alternate "hey everyone play Ikaruga" strat.

Loras wrote:-how do you soak them actually, during vortex (this question is valid for doorway tactic too)-during vortex there are LOTS, LOTS of balls, ain't the chance for the soakers to miss a ball pretty huge? (it's big enough with the doorway tactic, where they cover 180 degrees, and seems absolutely certain to happen in the other tactic, where you need to cover 360 degrees).


Most of these strats involve aggressive ball management. Yes, many balls spawn at once, but they're also handled very, very quickly. In one of the videos posted, you'll notice that you don't see balls on screen for very long at all.

Loras wrote:Also one final question - is the Touched by Light/Dark debuff an AoE debuff,or it damages only you? And the Surge of Light/Darkness - is it a raid-wide, 100%-of-the-time active damaging ability, or they cast it at some point?


Touch of light/dark is a single target debuff for about 6k every 2 seconds. Light/Dark Surge is constant AoE damage aura, 4500 damage every 2 seconds.

Loras wrote: I am told it's single-target damaging debuff, but I don't think so. And if I'm correct - then doesn't it "annihilate" the raid? It can be removed by the person changing colors, but didn't the doorway method involve no movement at all? All in all, lots of unclear stuff for me here...


Surge just needs to be healed through -- after mark/fr totem/SP it should average to about 3.4k damage a tick.

Touch of light can be removed by changing colors, or you just have to heal through it. It looks like it was hitting us for about 4.5k a tick. We have a dedicated healer for our hunters because they'll have the debuff a lot (both show 36.7% uptime, interestingly enough).
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:37 am

Yeah,I read most of the other topics (maybe not all, but a big part of them), just either I didn't find what I was looking for, or there were contrafictions. And, well, I still don't get it how people get away with the door ball spawners. Don't get me wrong, but I have checked 2 videos on youtube with the doorway strategy, and the raid positioning looked absolutely the same like ours. Yet, on their raid frames I could see barely any damage taken, while in our composition the raid got smashed almost immediately. And you confirmed that indeed 1 ball hits you, but it still seems deadly to me. I mean, 1 ball spawning during vortex = 15k dmg + vortex ticks = lots of more K dmg, + surge ticks + touched ticks, and it looks like an instagib... If anyone could take a close screenshot of the doorway and ping a dot for the exact place you stack, I'd be very grateful (yeah, I'm THAT nooblet *shy*).
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Niinbob » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:43 am

My raid used tried using "soakers" for the first couple attempts but it seemed pointless when the 2 tanks can just strafe back and forth to block every orb from getting to the whole raid standing in the doorway. Letting the 2 tanks "soak" really makes the healing alot easier

As for the shields/vortexs, we put the whole raid with the dark essence except the mages/rogues/spriests/hunters. During the Dark vortex we use iceblock/cloak/dispersion/deterrence and no extra healing is required, tho our ret still uses Dsac just in case and if one of those people don't have their cooldown up for some reason they get a pain supp. During the Light Vortex our 1 holy pally (because we only had 1 show up a few weeks) uses his Dsac/Aura Mastery and it's easy to heal threw. We split up the priests for holy nova healing to help. We pre switch to the dark twin prior to every ability and bloodlust if the dark shield is used, thats still the hardest to beat.

We have never had a problem with a ball spawning in the doorway and hitting us, our raid takes little to no dmg (melee might get splashed when a ball hits a tank).
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:18 am

Niinbob wrote:We have never had a problem with a ball spawning in the doorway and hitting us, our raid takes little to no dmg (melee might get splashed when a ball hits a tank).

Yes! This is the mistery! Go and type /tar V at the doorway and there is a ball right at the very center of it. And the spawners to the left and to the right are like 2-3 yards away. Where is that miraculous spot where you don't get hit by the balls ... :(
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby fafhrd » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:46 am

Loras wrote:
Niinbob wrote:We have never had a problem with a ball spawning in the doorway and hitting us, our raid takes little to no dmg (melee might get splashed when a ball hits a tank).

Yes! This is the mistery! Go and type /tar V at the doorway and there is a ball right at the very center of it. And the spawners to the left and to the right are like 2-3 yards away. Where is that miraculous spot where you don't get hit by the balls ... :(


Given that we don't really position people carefully at all, I don't think we're relying on any particular ball avoidance positions. I know I move around till I find a spot where both mobs are outside minimum range. I know the raid does get hit by balls every now an then from the spawns, we heal through it. I'm not sure about double spawns, perhaps a preemptive shield + heal after is keeping people alive.

We do it in the raid portal door btw, not the door the mobs come in from.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby Loras » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:17 am

Yes, the raid portal door. There is a spawner IN the door AND to the left and to the right, like 3 yards away. And it's the distance between every single ball spawn point in the room. And for me it seems you just HAVE to stay on one spawner. And if you do, the ball is instant, so you can't react. It spawns and explodes at the very same time.
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Re: [25H] Twins door strat ability question and probabilities

Postby kanst » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:27 am

If you are using the door strat, you need soakers to not suck. On our kills with me and a feral soaking we routinely take equal or more damage then the actual tanks. You should basically be popping every orb within 40 yards of your healer. The key is to make sure to hit your own color every so often to keep the speed boost up. There should never be a ball that gets in, pick 2 soakers and have them learn. Within a few tries you will know all the relevant spawn pts.

As for specific positioning we just all cram into the door and fill out the area. Its important you dont stick out of the door. We had issues from people with mediocre pcs who would squeeze out to increase their fps, thus screwing us over.

I also dont see the point in 1 tanking, shield DPS isnt that hard. If you have a raid capable of switchng quick it should never be an issue.

If you want to see what the numbers look like here is our last kill:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hw4q ... 229&e=4501

Me (gatgat) and Osogrande are the soakers. The whole key to the door strat is throughput. Because no one has to move all your healers need to crank out lots of heals and your dps need to max their dps.
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