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[Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:26 am

This is mostly directed at Meloree, because I'm looking at his 9/17 ToGC log, but I'm looking for advice from anyone right now.

For comparison, here's last night's log 'o' failure from my guild's 25-man attempts.

For one thing, I'm noticing that your raid DPS is around 107k whereas mine hovers between 85k and 100k with an average closer to 94k. I already knew that raid dps was a problem - especially since you're running 3 tanks and I'm running 2. However, on both your kill and our failures, it looks like Gormok dies after 2 mins 30 seconds, meaning you're taking the full 14 impales (which is obviously less of an issue for three tanks). Have you tried using two, and if so, do you adjust strategy to try and reduce that to a more manageable number?

We've had pretty good luck using 3 (druid) 5 (me,DS to clear) 3 (druid, bop to clear) and then if raid dps is slow, splitting the last 2-3 up amongst us. However, I'd like to be able to burn him down a little faster so as to only take 11 stacks before he dies. That usually involves ignoring snobolds though.

Second Question: How do you divide up dps between snobolds and boss? We've tried having the person with the snobold run into melee range and having everyone nuke it, which worked but caused a few incidental Stomp+Snobold Melee deaths. We've also tried having melee stay on boss and ranged nuke the snobolds, which seems to work but results in slower Gormok and death and longer Snobold "uptime" overall. It looks like for one thing, your shadow priest is on Gormok almost full time, whereas ours is mostly on snobolds which is cutting her dps significantly. Actually, looking closer it seems you have about 5-6 ranged players doing the bulk of the damage, and everyone else either ignore or DoT them.

Third question: We've been messing around with different phase 2 strategies. At first I wanted to have everyone burn Acidmaw, but we tended to have trouble with managing the poison debuff, and melee lost a lot of face time due to Sweep knockback. Given that we have weaker DPS overall, this led to enrage issues. Lately, I've been trying a strategy that involves splitting DPS so that the melee always attacks the moving target, while range focuses Acidmaw full time. Results are a little better, though an unlucky bile on a melee can be problematic.

From your parse, it looks like you're having everyone nuke Acidmaw first, because the melee are taking Sweep damage during the first worm dps phase when Acidmaw is the stationary one. Is this the strategy you use, and do you have any tips on executing it more effectively than we were? The usual deaths seemed to be Sweep+Bile or mass melee poison. I usually let the druid tank the stationary one and I kited the moving one behind him such that the spray hit nobody, but the melee could quickly run to me if they got the poison debuff.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby kanst » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:19 am

We finally killed this boss, albeit right at the enrage
theckhd wrote:For comparison, here's last night's log 'o' failure from my guild's 25-man attempts.


http://worldoflogs.com/reports/re154QlT ... 586&e=3143

Here is our parse of the kill, our dps seems a little higher then yours

theckhd wrote:For one thing, I'm noticing that your raid DPS is around 107k whereas mine hovers between 85k and 100k with an average closer to 94k. I already knew that raid dps was a problem - especially since you're running 3 tanks and I'm running 2. However, on both your kill and our failures, it looks like Gormok dies after 2 mins 30 seconds, meaning you're taking the full 14 impales (which is obviously less of an issue for three tanks). Have you tried using two, and if so, do you adjust strategy to try and reduce that to a more manageable number?


If we are ahead of the timer when the worm is spawning we stop dps on Gormok and dps down the snobolds, the goal is to go into phase 2 with no snobolds alive as they are extra dmg that the healers have to deal with.

theckhd wrote:We've had pretty good luck using 3 (druid) 5 (me,DS to clear) 3 (druid, bop to clear) and then if raid dps is slow, splitting the last 2-3 up amongst us. However, I'd like to be able to burn him down a little faster so as to only take 11 stacks before he dies. That usually involves ignoring snobolds though.

Second Question: How do you divide up dps between snobolds and boss? We've tried having the person with the snobold run into melee range and having everyone nuke it, which worked but caused a few incidental Stomp+Snobold Melee deaths. We've also tried having melee stay on boss and ranged nuke the snobolds, which seems to work but results in slower Gormok and death and longer Snobold "uptime" overall. It looks like for one thing, your shadow priest is on Gormok almost full time, whereas ours is mostly on snobolds which is cutting her dps significantly. Actually, looking closer it seems you have about 5-6 ranged players doing the bulk of the damage, and everyone else either ignore or DoT them.


We run 3 tanks largely due to phase 2. In phase 2 we have 1 tank on the rooted one and 2 tanks on the unrooted one. This allows the tank to run to whoever needs bile instead of poisoned people losing time on target. We taunt after each bile and the tank with bile finds and frees those with poison. We have found this works a lot better.

As for snobolds, we work in a triangle, melee are on boss 100%, ranged are in 2 camps. If they get a snobold they move into a position about 5 yards behind the tanks and ALL ranged switch, we had a ranged with assist who marks snobolds. Snobold killing is based off who its on. On a tank healer gets top priority, on a caster second, then on a hunter third. Melee snobolds are ignored and taken care of between phase or if we are ahead of timer at the end of phase. As I said we killed it right at enrage, so basically we did each phase in exactly the alloted time with each boss dying as the next one came in.

theckhd wrote:Third question: We've been messing around with different phase 2 strategies. At first I wanted to have everyone burn Acidmaw, but we tended to have trouble with managing the poison debuff, and melee lost a lot of face time due to Sweep knockback. Given that we have weaker DPS overall, this led to enrage issues. Lately, I've been trying a strategy that involves splitting DPS so that the melee always attacks the moving target, while range focuses Acidmaw full time. Results are a little better, though an unlucky bile on a melee can be problematic.

From your parse, it looks like you're having everyone nuke Acidmaw first, because the melee are taking Sweep damage during the first worm dps phase when Acidmaw is the stationary one. Is this the strategy you use, and do you have any tips on executing it more effectively than we were? The usual deaths seemed to be Sweep+Bile or mass melee poison. I usually let the druid tank the stationary one and I kited the moving one behind him such that the spray hit nobody, but the melee could quickly run to me if they got the poison debuff.
.

Our strategy puts everyone on Acidmaw, he is tanked by our third tank and we pop heroes once he is engaged, Me and the warrior tank deal with Dreadscale in a corner, as i said earlier whoever gets bile runs it to whoever has poison. If melee gets it, its called on vent and the raid healers keep an extra eye on melee, since bile+swipe+poison can be a lot of dmg. With this strategy Acid is normally around 15% when he submerges, he is picked up by whichever tank doesnt have bile and finished off. Then we move to dreadscale. When he is rooted he is no problem. When hes mobile we rotate cooldowns on tanks to ensure that no one gets gibbed.

The hardest part about phase 2 is making sure that the melee dont all get bile. It is imperative that they spread out so only one group gets it. 8 melee with bile means a lot of dead melee.

You didnt ask about phase 3, but that is one of the tougher phases. He hits really freaking hard, and with knockdowns threat can be dicey. The key to this phase is to spread out though. We tank him on a wall so that both the tank and the melee dont get knocked off target.

For our guild suprisingly not getting hit by charge was the biggest challenge. There is nothing more frustrating then wiping cuz some idiot cant avoid charge. I know the questions were directed at someone else but I hope this helped a lil
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Meloree » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:35 am

First off: The danger of totally public logs, people can evaluate us on some of our epic fail moments.

theckhd wrote:For one thing, I'm noticing that your raid DPS is around 107k whereas mine hovers between 85k and 100k with an average closer to 94k. I already knew that raid dps was a problem - especially since you're running 3 tanks and I'm running 2. However, on both your kill and our failures, it looks like Gormok dies after 2 mins 30 seconds, meaning you're taking the full 14 impales (which is obviously less of an issue for three tanks). Have you tried using two, and if so, do you adjust strategy to try and reduce that to a more manageable number?


We took 13. I had one impale up going into Acidmaw (almost positive). And Gormok did die early enough that we had time to position/setup before the worms were active, which is really all that matters for that phase. All snobolds were dead before transition. I don't think 2 dots going into Acidmaw would be a really big deal, though. We've never tried using 2 tanks, it always seemed totally unnecessary (for us), so I can't really offer any advice there, beyond "abuse the hell out of paladin opness, and BoP the other guy". I personally think something along the lines of 4, 4, "the rest" is probably the best strategy, but I haven't tried it. Paladin takes 4, no worries about cooldowns, and just heal through the DoT damage, next tank takes 4 or 5, cooldowns covering whatever is needed (BoP to clear), Paladin takes whatever is left, relying on the haxness of AD and the lifesaving proc, and DS/BoP's off the debuffs at the end.

theckhd wrote:Second Question: How do you divide up dps between snobolds and boss? We've tried having the person with the snobold run into melee range and having everyone nuke it, which worked but caused a few incidental Stomp+Snobold Melee deaths. We've also tried having melee stay on boss and ranged nuke the snobolds, which seems to work but results in slower Gormok and death and longer Snobold "uptime" overall. It looks like for one thing, your shadow priest is on Gormok almost full time, whereas ours is mostly on snobolds which is cutting her dps significantly. Actually, looking closer it seems you have about 5-6 ranged players doing the bulk of the damage, and everyone else either ignore or DoT them.


The "strat" is that whoever gets the snobold moves into melee, and everyone burns it. That doesn't so much happen because people... play lazy on farm content (just wait for this weeks log, it's really awful). I don't generally act out on vent, our raiders are pretty resonsible, but yesterday was a real offnight for us, I was pretty disgusted. Probably means we'll kill Anub on Sunday, that's generally the way it goes. I can't recall ever having real problems with Stomp deaths, though.

theckhd wrote:Third question: We've been messing around with different phase 2 strategies. At first I wanted to have everyone burn Acidmaw, but we tended to have trouble with managing the poison debuff, and melee lost a lot of face time due to Sweep knockback. Given that we have weaker DPS overall, this led to enrage issues. Lately, I've been trying a strategy that involves splitting DPS so that the melee always attacks the moving target, while range focuses Acidmaw full time. Results are a little better, though an unlucky bile on a melee can be problematic.


We use "everyone burns Acidmaw" in heroic. Simply put: Removing one of the debuffs quickly, and thereby easing positioning requirements results in a massive dps increase, and the enrage on Dreadscale is totally manageable. Positioning is basically "ranged spreads out" to minimize the targets affected by the poison. The melee knockback really isn't too bad, they have a couple of seconds off target. Again, in the parse you're looking at, some of the melee started on Dreadscale due to nothing more than "giant brain fart", it got people killed, and really threw off our timing on the worm phase. Basically, Acidmaw should be below 40% when he submerges, and he dies very quickly after the first transition. This frees up most of the stress of this phase. Ranged still has to spread when Dreadscale is stationary, but they're moving anyway during transitions, and there's no longer a positioning requirement when Dreadscale is mobile, which is a big win. Bile on melee just gets handled with aura mastery + dsac + they spread out as much as they can if/when it hits.

Depending on your DPS, if melee is always on the moving target AND Acidmaw dies before the 2nd transition, it's a win. If you lose so much Acidmaw DPS that Acidmaw is up again for the 3rd transition, it's going to cause (resolvable) problems, as ranged will have to bury Acidmaw, then MOVE to Dreadscale during what should be DPS time, and it won't ease the positioning at all for that phase.

If you want, PM me, I'm happy to answer questions, or talk anything over. But, really, the fight remains a dps check more than anything else. There's only so many games you can play with tanks (2 is a flat minimum), and healers (I wouldn't want to go with less than 5) Positioning and strat only goes so far, people have to perform. And if you're putting that much pressure on tanks and healers, all the DPS are going to have to play better, use healthstones and cooldowns to stay alive, and all that other stuff that it seems impossible to make them do sometimes.

EDITS: Heroism. If you're having trouble with worms, and you want to go with the melee split strategy, the best time to use it is probably on Acidmaw Mobile. Make sure everyone knows the goal is that Acidmaw can't live to a 2nd transition. We tend to use heroism on the first stun in P3, but it's not necessary, the timer in P3 is quite relaxed, and so long as you don't get charged, you'll be fine.

The thing I yell out on vent all P3 long is "watch your back, don't get punted into a doorway". If you spread out (or have a ret with Divine Purpose removing Freezing Breaths), not dodging charge is the only thing that can wipe you. We tank on a wall for zero melee time off target. But even in our kill video, from week 1 with stricter timers, the dps check was manageable even with terrible boss/charge positionings.

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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:47 pm

@kanst:
Yeah, we also clean up the snobolds before finishing Gormok, but it's usually a close call. We've toyed with leaving some up and finishing the boss first, but it always ended up with melee grouping up to kill them while the worms were spawning, with predictable results.

Our early attempts, with 3 tanks, used a similar strategy for bile, and it seemed to work quite well. That was the only night we consistently got to phase 3, and it was not coincidental that it was the night we had most of our better (as in higher-dps) players online as well.

Phase 3 was actually pretty easy that evening, other than the fact that we didn't have quite the dps to make the enrage timer. The second worm was still at 20% or so when Icehowl emerged, with a few deaths. But we've never lost anyone to a charge.

@Meloree:
We've been popping heroism when Acidmaw goes mobile since everyone is on him at that point. The one night of P3 attempts, we tried saving it for phase 3 during a stun for the extra damage, but losing an extra DPS in phase 2 would offset the gain.

I think given the feedback here, I'm going to
  • go back to the 3-tank strategy on our next night of attempts, provided I can coax more raid DPS out of some of the lower-performing players.
  • Drag snobolds to melee range and have everyone burn them
  • Have everyone nuke Acidmaw. Hero depending on how quickly he's dropping.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Soralin » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:55 pm

We use 2 tanks (Prot Paladin, DK) and swap at 4 stacks of bleed. We save HoP to remove bleeds for the transition, we have two holy paladins who beacon the opposite tank so its more than enough throughput to keep the tanks up. We use personal cooldowns once the impale stacks start getting high (to mitigate the actual impale damage, not just the bleed) as well as pain suppression / bubble+HoSac / guardian spirits.

We have a warlock tanking the stationary worm and the two tanks on Acidmaw, which we kill first. We use two tanks so once the first tank gets the fire debuff the other taunts and the first moves to clean up poison debuffs in the raid. Once Acidmaw is about to die, the non-active tank moves to Dreadscale and taunts, and then tanks it through enrage. Enrage damage isn't very serious but if you're having issues, your tanks should have personal cooldowns back up again and you can rotate through.

We save heroism for phase 3, on the SECOND charge. After the first charge I tank Icehowl up against the wall, wedged into the corner on the left or right side of the section of wall he charged at (the sections that have the horde/alliance shields on them, and are kind of V shaped). I tank it in the corner of that slightly V shaped section of wall, our melee are wedged into the vertex of the V shape, so when he crashes again everybody ends up in roughly the same place (except for ranged who will be pushed back a bit). The downside is a larger number of people will have to move, however there is less distance to run back to Icehowl and you get a lot more benefit from heroism as your melee have more time on the boss.

We were getting really close using this method prenerf (getting very close to killing it before enrage) and one shot it once the nerf was rolled out.

One other thing to keep in mind - have a holy priest ready in P3 with Guardian Spirit. If your dps get hit by trample (which they shouldn't, but anyway..) a quick shield wall backed up with a GS and some big healing will allow you to outlast enrage and save a potential wipe. Then again if your DPS doesn't fail at running like ours did initially you mightn't need to worry about that.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Arianne » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:16 am

So, we have 3 tanks and 10 melee. Handling PT seems to be going fine in the first phase of the worms where everyone is burning Acidmaw, but having 5 melee on each side of the mobile worm (dreadscale) after acidmaw goes down still means that there's too much bile damage. Has anyone had any experience with a 4 point melee strat and does it actually give enough room for melee to not all be hit?
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Arianne » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:05 am

Well, I guess we'll try it and see. :o
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Titanshammer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:01 am

So my guild started this last night and started it on a high note. We had just came from Yogg 3 keeper and crafting our first mace. Was running 3 tanks, 6 healers, 16 dps 9 of which were melee. We ended up wasting 12 attempts only seen Icehowl 2 times, due to people dying and us losing dps.

Phase 1: We used a 3 tanks 2 bleed rotation, tanks were Druid, Pally, Warrior. We were killing all the snobolds and having people run into melee with them. We would get Gormok down as the worms were coming out which caused one of our problems. Warrior would taunt Gormok and the other 2 tanks would get in their spots for the worms. Ret pally was popping Bubble Sac and Warrior tank would still go down. Wondering if keeping Snobolds up unless on a healer or tank would improve this or not.

Phase 2: Pally is picking up Acidmaw, Druid is picking up Dreadscale. Ranged is focusing on stationary mob while melee is on mobile mob the whole time til acid gets to 20% then everyone switches to him. About this time Icehowl is coming into the arena. First part of worms we just normal dps, after they switch and acid is the mobile worm we use heroism/bloodlust for the extra damage. We always have 1-6 people die in this phase which causes us to wipe. Was wondering if focusing Acid til he is dead is better than split dps, just to get it down to 1 debuff.

Phase 3: Well we make it to phase 3 but we still have the worms up and we are wiping. I will worry more about phase 3 when we actually have decent attempts in it.

Main things I am wondering. Ignore Snobolds in phase 1 unless its a healer or tank? Split dps or focus Acidmaw in phase 2. Fire protection pots for phase 2 worth it or not? I know we have the dps for the fight as we are short by a couple seconds for salt and pepper 25.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Belloc » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:55 am

Put 6-7 ranged (or all ranged, if you must) on snobolds and keep melee dps on Gormok. Ranged have to move away from other ranged, but NOT into melee range (or else they get hurt).

If Icehowl is coming out while worms are still up and you have 2 or less DPS dead, your DPS is just way too low.

So, here's how phase 2 works: Worms come out and EVERYONE dps's Acidmaw. Melee need to be spread out around him, otherwise you'll have 4-5 people getting the poison, which sucks. Worms will burrow. Acidmaw re-emerges and you hit heroism. Burn Acidmaw, once again. He should be dead before they burrow again. Now you have everyone DPSing Dreadscale. Melee need to spread out around him if he is stationary (4+ melee getting hit by bile = very likely wipe).

If you can't down the worms before Icehowl becomes active, you won't meet Icehowl's enrage timer. If that's the case, your DPS needs to improve dramatically. Seriously, you will not progress at all in heroic 25-man ToC unless your DPS are putting out high numbers. That's all there is to it.

Good luck -- I know how hard it can be to get people to improve their DPS.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Titanshammer » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:15 pm

Dps seemed fine to me, I think what hurt us the most was having everyone switch to Snobolds. Everyone in raid was 5k+ top dpser was pushing 8k (op'd dk). as for Worms people just have the mind set that they don't have to spread out or something.. first 3 attempts had 4-6 people get hit with poison at once.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby fafhrd » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:23 pm

Snobolds we just ignore unless they're on a caster (healer or DPS, not hunters). One of our tanks (pally) says to leave them on her, the other tank (warrior) likes to have them killed when they're on him. Whoever has a snobold runs into melee range so people can cleave off the snobold while killing it (yes the take a little extra damage standing there during stomps, tough, all the melee take the damage anyway). When a snobold is brought in for a kill like this, all DPS (melee and ranged) burn it down ASAP.

Generally any snobolds left after gormok dies can be killed while the worms are spawning - one might last until the first burrow phase and get killed during that. We've actually had a snobold on a hunter (me) until halfway through icehowl's health without much trouble (small risk of a stun/daze during a charge is all, but that didn't happen, and pets/treants killed it eventually).
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Belarkan » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:37 am

Treck wrote:We used 2 tanks from the start and after the 3rd try we had P1 completely sorted, gained a lot of time on bringing it down fast aswell (since the enrage of the whole encounter is pretty close).
I really see no reason to use 3 tanks, waste of dps imo, its close as it is allrdy.
The rotation for me and the DK was:
DK 2stacks
Me 3 stacks, bubble asap at the 3rd and remove macro (safest if the other tank is 2nd on threat, he might take a hit)
Me 3stacks again, at this point hes got about 4 stacks I think so he hits hard but not enough to kill (salv to help slightly)
DK 2stacks I BoP him asap after 2nd stack and he removes it with a macro, me 2nd on aggro if he would have time for a swing.
DK 2 stacks
And by that time hes dead. Pretty awesome dps for us imo.


By far the strat that worked the best for us.
We just twicked it a bit like:

Druid gets 3 stacks
I get 3, bubble, get 3 others
Druid gets 4 (2 last are under his CD, it lasts long enough to cover 2 or even 3 impals) then BoP him
I get 1/2 other dots.

Point is, we are a bit short dps wise so we had to tune it a bit.
Also, we noticed that whenever our druid has a 2 dot stack while on the worms, he died (he was tanking the static worm at the beginning).
So we choose to let him have 4 dots before BoPing. It's fine as long as you brun a cooldown.

Anyway, I'm happy not being a healer on this encounter :p

Heroic version is satisfying imo, its not facerollable easy, takes time and dedication, but its doable even for us.


Same for us.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Treck » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:41 am

Ive learned NOT to use Bubble to clear the debuffs after some retards on some tries.
Using BoP is better, does the same and you can use Bubble for those times when retards gets the firedebuff in P2, and just doesnt wanna clear your poison.
We use the strat with me tanking the moving worm, and the other tank tanking the stationary.
Some 3tanks strats have a tankswich after a tank gets the poison, so he can run and clear it, with a 2tank strat you have to have them come to you. When they are retarded, you have your bubble.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Invisusira » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:47 am

We typically give the snobolds a pretty high priority. ALL ranged will be on snobolds, with priority of healer > ranged > melee. If the snobold is on a melee, ALL dps - ranged AND melee - will burn it down.

Why? It improves DPS and eases healing. As long as there is a snobold up, SOMEone is getting stunned and SOMEone is getting fire thrown at them.

We easily get him down before the worms come out using this strategy. We also use three tanks.
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Re: [Northrend Beasts] Preperation for HEROIC/HM Boss #1

Postby Donahu » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:28 pm

I just read through it all and thought I would have a very good grasp of what we would need to be doing this coming week.. up until the point where I saw that the Snobolds are the ones that throw the fire out. How often do they throw the fire out? Anyone seen a pattern of it?

IE. I tend to notice it only thrown to the ranged, more often a healer than not. Is that just coincidence or can it be thrown at melee as well?

I was going to be going with the "ignore snobolds on the people that underperform" strategy and give priority to DPS'ing the ones on our top end DPS and healers, maybe tanks. The people on the lower end of the spectrum could be acceptable losses in DPS time compared to the DPS loss of forcing everyone to swap and ruin rotations/procs. This might not be the case though if the snobolds are the ones throwing out fire as these fires generally can begin to screw up the top dps etc as well even if a snobold is not on them or around them.
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