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[25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

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[25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:49 pm

Hey everyone,

So, my guild's going to be doing Yogg-Saron+3 tonight for the first time, and if we're lucky get our first legendary mace.
We still haven't completely made up our minds on which watcher to leave out though. We've narrowed it down to Freya or Hodir, but it's not entirely clear which we'll be more successful without. Here are my thoughts:

Hodir --
Greater chance for random things to go wrong, due to the lack of saves and the greater damage on the raid
In particular pick ups for p3 will need to be a big area of improvement, as we usually have a couple people saved by Hodir from getting one shot by immortal guardians

Freya --
Requires clean execution on p2 (I've heard that without Freya you want only 2 brain phases in 10 man, is that true for 25 as well?), raid needs to stop blaming low sanity on RNG
Do ranged ever have to switch to adds in p3 due to low sanity? If so, how to coordinate what melee move to boss?
Healing buff not that important, certainly strictly worse than reduction in damage taken.


Anyway, input/recommendations from others would be much appreciated, and feel free to use this thread for other discussion of Y-S hard modes.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:18 pm

I think the normal thing is to drop Hodir first, but I'd drop Freya. Sanity wells basically just cover for bad play. If you're starting to do hard mode, step one is to immediately break everyone's bad sanity-reducing habits. People actually need to start watching for those who get feared and your raid leaders need to be making sure it's happening, etc. Hodir, imo, covers more for mistakes. Perhaps your taunt resisted and an add hits a healer, or your melee gets constricted on the far side, or a clothie gets feared into a Crusher. Ultimately these things are planned around when you get into the harder hard modes, but that's something that takes much more raid coordination than the small bit of personal responsibility you'll need to manage your sanity better.

/shrug. Just my opinion. I think three brain phases is fine for 25 man (and 10 actually) with 3 keepers. Ranged shouldn't have to switch to adds unless your melee falls behind. Our normal strategy for phase 3 is to turn around on the first tick if your sanity is high, but if it's under 20 or so, just watch the timer and turn around a few seconds early. Our raid leader calls out in vent when low-sanity ranged should turn around.

I use TJH to announce to raid chat how the fears pass, too (in a kind of failbot way). DBM should be putting a skull on their head, and you should probably be calling them out on vent, too. As far as I know, the only other way for people up top to avoidably lose Sanity is Brain Link, but even that is usually mostly avoidable depending on positioning. I know just last week my OT and I were on complete opposite sides of the room on separate Crushers when we got linked. 0.o
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:48 pm

We dropped Mimiron for our Y+3 kill three weeks ago to grab a mace. To counter the suddenly powerful corrupters, we had a strategy shift:

Instead of the normal focusing on crushers then cleaning up corrupters for the outside group, the tentacle group is focusing and killing corrupters first, letting tanks either joust or straight out tank crushers (which is easily done at 0 stacks). Then, when the brain is stunned, switch dps to the crusher and burn them.

Normally in p2, killing crushers first results in 4-5 corrupters up by the time the crusher dies and dps can turn on corrupters. This way, only 1 or 2 corrupters are up at most, and you can stick a rogue or prot warrior on them to interrupt most of the casts.

We basically had to not screw up all 3 brain phases though. If the stun was 35 sec or shorter, you get a second crusher which is pretty much a wipe.

Comparatively, I think this is less difficult than either dropping Freya or Hodir, because
1.) 20% speed is far, -far- less of a helpful buff than +20% healing or -20% damage taken.
2.) Using the focus corrupter strat, the con is that you have to heal through a bit of extra damage in p2 because tanks are taking more hits from the crushers. Otherwise, the number of debuffs that go out is roughly the same as the normal focus crusher strat.
3.) Asking for target switching and maybe 5-10% extra healing is significantly less harsh than asking for no deaths at all, or no going insane.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Belloc » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:06 pm

Kishandra wrote:Comparatively, I think this is less difficult than either dropping Freya or Hodir, because
1.) 20% speed is far, -far- less of a helpful buff than +20% healing or -20% damage taken.
2.) Using the focus corrupter strat, the con is that you have to heal through a bit of extra damage in p2 because tanks are taking more hits from the crushers. Otherwise, the number of debuffs that go out is roughly the same as the normal focus crusher strat.
3.) Asking for target switching and maybe 5-10% extra healing is significantly less harsh than asking for no deaths at all, or no going insane.

20% speed = a much faster brain phase, much faster target acquisition when running across the room to a new crusher, less brain link ticks, etc.

While I'll probably suggest dropping Mimiron on our +3, it's still worth noting how much it actually helps.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:32 pm

Belloc wrote:20% speed = a much faster brain phase, much faster target acquisition when running across the room to a new crusher, less brain link ticks, etc.

While I'll probably suggest dropping Mimiron on our +3, it's still worth noting how much it actually helps.


20% speed is 12% in reality since most everyone has speed enchanted on their boots. And they should if they don't. Furthermore, 2/3 the moving in the brain phase is covered with aspect of the pack, so that reduces the benefit you'd get with Mimiron even further (our strat is - everyone is assigned 1 tentacle. You kill it, you start running to the gate regardless if it's open or not. Ideally all 8 tentacles die, hunter throws up pack, everyone moves into yogg's room.)

While it's a great buff, and can add an extra two seconds to brain stun (in addition to the 1 second or so for 10% more dps), I don't think it's all that it's made out to be.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Belloc » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:45 pm

How is it 12%? I'd imagine it would stack (multiplicatively). Therefore it'd be 100% movement speed * 1.08 * 1.2 = 129.6% movement speed (so, a 21.6% movement speed increase).


I could be wrong on this, of course.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:50 pm

Thanks for the tips. Ended up going without mimi and got it done in a little over 2 hours of attempts, nabbing us our first (server second) Val'anyr
Last edited by Dorvan on Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:56 pm

Run speed buffs have historically stacked additively, but that's not to say that this particular buff follows the same rules. It wouldn't surprise me if it was similar to Crusader Aura and simply multiplied everything.

Our Yogg25 kills are typically not very pretty. Sometimes we do well and stay ahead on DPS, but more often we have 2-3 people failing at portals, constrictors living far too long, and general sanity failure. Three brain phases is a quick P2 even on easy mode, and we typically get there with a few corruptors left. Since Mimiron requires that you stay ahead of corruptors the whole time, and Freya requires that you not fail at sanity and blow through P2 in 2-3 phases consistently, Hodir was the obvious choice for us. It made for painful wipes where random one-shots actually killed people instead of ice blocking them, but it was still doable with sloppy DPS.

So, we did Yogg+3 without Hodir last week to craft our first legendary. I don't think we're going to bother with it again until it's time to learn One Light (after Mimiron and Freya go down).
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Splug » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:53 am

Any of the non-thorim keepers are fine to drop out for 3-keeper. The main thing they do is provide a damage increase, a minor passive survivability improvement, and a minor side effect to cover for errors. I wouldn't agonize too much over which one is "best" to drop; really, the fight doesn't change too much from 4-keeper down to 1-keeper. That said, I did record last week's one-keeper run (not our first, but the first since I installed fraps...) and am trying to decide if I should bother putting the video together or just hold off for 10-man 0K.

Three illusion phases is fine for 25. There's a soft cap on sanity that prevents people from entering P3 really down too much unless they do something wrong. Four would start to cause enrage timer problems.

I've heard Mimiron's runspeed boost is cumulative with boot enchants, unholy presence, PoJ, etc. I'm not certain on that, but it certainly seemed like a significant speed boost back when we did 4-keeper.

Grats on the mace Dorvan. We finally got enough shards this week, then got stuck on Yogg and decided to hold off until Sunday to craft the thing since our priest with the fragments is unavailable until then.

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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Kishandra » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:21 pm

Belloc wrote:How is it 12%? I'd imagine it would stack (multiplicatively). Therefore it'd be 100% movement speed * 1.08 * 1.2 = 129.6% movement speed (so, a 21.6% movement speed increase).


I could be wrong on this, of course.


You know, we never actually measured it. But from the wording on things like pursuit of justice, where it all specifically says "does not stack with any other movement speed increases", I just assumed that your speed was set to the highest of all available speed buffs.

Like if you had boot enchant, you'd be at 1.08.
If you had boot enchant and poj, you'd be at 1.15
If you had boot enchant, poj, and aspect of the pack, you'd be at 1.3
if you had boot enchant, poj, and speed of invention, you'd be at 1.2 (I think.)

Now, if the 20% speed bonus were to actually stack on top of the pre-existing speed bonus, then it'd be a fair bit more valuable ... but I'm not sure if that's the case.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Smartos » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:14 am

An interesting thread as Yogg -1 concerns us, too. We don't have any problems doing it with all 4 watchers, but as soon as we drop one (we've tried Hodir and Mimiron by now), it becomes a disaster. Without Hodir, people randomly died during phase 2, while without Mimiron, the melee fail to destroy the brain in three phases and we get overrun by corruptors and crushers. I fear that we cannot go without Freya for now as some people are too stupid to conserve their sanity in the brain room. By now, we have used the focus crusher strategy, but that one with focusing the corruptors also sounds interesting.

I suspect that we have too many melee because there are always 2-3 melee who have to stay in Yogg's level and feel quite useless when crushers and corruptors don't spawn directly next to each other. For this reason, there is a lack of damage to the tentacles which causes, in the end, an inevitable wipe. Do you think that this may be the reason? Or is it rather general failure? And do you have any recommendations what we could improve?
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby kanst » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:28 am

Weve done -1 without Mim. Do you guys put all your dps on crushers?

We have found the most success with split dps up top. We have one group that kills crushers and one thats goes around the room constantly killing corruptors. That way we never get overrun by either
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Splug » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:33 am

We tried the "crusher first" and "corruptor first" plans and concluded that both can be effective, and the only person who has to really adjust is the tank on the crusher. As a result, we've moved on to the "kill whatever's closest to the group" plan, to minimize movement and maximize ranged damage uptime. I just have to react to the crusher's buff stacking to 10 or higher by popping IBF; the stun will hit before it fades so I don't bother leaving (if it doesn't, we're hosed anyway because we'll get an extra crusher and that just demands too much damage).

Smartos, it sounds like your main problem is slow portal damage, not slow tentacle damage. If your portal crew is opperating effectively, the stun should occur in 20 seconds or less, giving a 35-40-second window for brain damage (depending on how close people are to the brain room). If they take longer than that, you risk getting additional crusher/corruptor spawns on top, and that's what's putting you behind most likely. If the portals are handled correctly, the top crew should be able to keep up with spawns indefinitely, and even clear the board if there's a convenient spawn (corruptor/crusher on top of the raid). That's what you want to focus on optimizing; if you can get 8-10 damage in there right as the portals come up, with specific tentacle areas assigned to each of them (back left, front right, back 3 on icecrown, etc), it'll make a huge difference.

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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Smartos » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:15 pm

Hmm, thank you for your hints. I'm pretty surprised, we just tried it without Freya and made it after some attempts whereas we wiped many hours during the last week with other keepers. It seems that it was quite good for the raid that some people were absent who would definitely have failed at their sanity and the portals.

And yes, we always have target assignments in the brain room. Without that, even the normal mode would probably have been close to impossible with our melee many of whom often tend to behave a bit stupid. Today, Yogg was always stunned about 20 s after the portals and we made it in 3 portal phases. I just hope that it wasn't just a very good day that led us to the kill.
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Re: [25] Yogg-Saron Hard (0-3 watcher)

Postby Eroslight » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:01 am

Btw - it is probably the best idea ever to have all the DKs use army of the dead at the start of P3 - ESPECIALLY on 1 light in the darkness.

Its either the best or a close second to baby spicing the brain in p2.







oh wait...........







What?
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