Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Joanadark » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:13 pm

Yeah, it's a big bump for guilds learning Yogg. Less so for those working on hardmodes, whose only advantage is that they won't wipe in P1 as often to feel stupid about it


I've been working on Alone in the Dark for 2 weeks, and the Yog Changes are a pretty huge deal for that encounter.
Its annoying, cause we were prolly gonna get it this week anyway. ><
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby PsiVen » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:54 pm

Well, in theory P1 properly done is identical for hard mode, with a higher DPS requirement (which isn't relevant really, since the P2/P3 requirements are higher) -- it just allows for sloppy execution on easy mode. I agree it's a pretty big deal for working on hard modes, but more for "this fight is stupid" failures than "I screwed up" ones ;)
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Seloei » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:23 am

imho, phase1 was the hardest part of the fight to learn of the fight. Phase 2 was just execution, phase1 was "can all the raid realise WTF is going on and react". Phase 3 was just tank reaction speed + interupts/turning.

If you had even one extra add midway it might lead to a wipe, and if you didn't finish them off fast enough in the end it meant a wipe was inc soon.

Real shame they went THAT badly at it, because it was doable if you do it right, but if i would have to guess then there are a hell of a lot of guilds complaining about yogg being too hard and they are right, since they have atleast one who accidentaly pops an extra cloud. The nerf just gives a lot more leeway to survive P1 and a lot bigger chance on killing him.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Conaan! » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:12 am

Well, after downing yogg, through 4 3 hour raid nights and then 1 last hour right before reset, i have to say the nerfs are kind of welcome, the RNG of the fight kinda screws me over, for example, the fight was going smooth, until when i was dragging 2 guardians around a cloud to melee dps, and i get MC'd, i pop human racial, SS myself regaining aggro, as soon as they get to me, im MC'd again, and i avengers shield a healer who was following the other tank in to sara.... that tank didnt die, but the adds were hectic from there on out, and it ended up a wipe

that kind of random bull just pisses me off
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Threatco » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:51 am

I feel bad for the guilds who have to say "pre-nerf" to get recognition. And i feel bad for the guilds who almost had it.

But for my guild, who is not even close. Us casual raiders are seeing $$ signs in our eyes. Here comes all that yogg 10 loot, xt and FL hard mode loot that otherwise was inaccessable to us.

Woot. Can't wait to share the good news and go collect my loots.

Now if only they would nerf for my 25 mans thorim arena trash spawn rate, freya add health, and hodir frozen blows damage I would have it made.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Seloei » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:24 am

yoggie bear phase1 was pure control and coordination. If even one messed up it might have been a wipe incoming.
MC on tanks? Keep 2 classes who can dispel to finish off the adds or heal (sham, priest) and loose adds don't become a problem (max 2 in middle at all time)

Chaos is the opposite to Control. Once you can control the fight, it becomes very easy.

the only 'needed' nerf was the spawn speed near the end. Just that change would of made even the most casual raiding guilds reach phase2 atleast 50% on their ~5. raidnight on him, with 2 adds up but that is manageable. Don't you remember how long it took to get those first kills on Kael'thas/Vashj? I'm thoroughly dissapointed at blizzards new "raiding game".
Last edited by Seloei on Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Avengeance » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:31 am

P1 was never really a problem once you figure out the tactic - we wiped in p1 in first 2 hrs attempting him, but after that when people learned, and you assign the right setups to deal with adds... key to end P1 is fast DPS to finish off the adds, thus shutting off the remaining clouds that are about to spawn. A good awake ranged DPS team is all you need... we keep the melee team by teh entrance, and they dps adds that are brought to them, and we run 2 tanks - they tank 1 add each, and bring their own add to the center to be finished off by the ranged.

But after nerf you can probably solo tank P1 and just tank it in center.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:05 pm

Woot. Can't wait to share the good news and go collect my loots.

Now if only they would nerf for my 25 mans thorim arena trash spawn rate, freya add health, and hodir frozen blows damage I would have it made.


I chuckled IRL. Thanks for brightening my day with this gem. =D
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Belloc » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:40 pm

Seloei wrote:Keep 2 classes who can dispel to finish off the adds or heal (sham, priest)


Paladins can dispel MC on Yogg, as well. It's one of, if not the only fight where they can.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Loras » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:56 am

Yeah, with more nerfs comes more loot...
And then again - would you feel happy if you have no raids, simply a big chest, free for all loot, that spawns items ever 2 seconds? Then we can be full 239 while not going out of Orgrimmar! Yey!

For me personally, all these nerfs totally destroy the feeling of accomplishment... I'm in Threatco's boat, with a guild that has considerably slow progress (7/14, everything post-nerf) due to tunnelvisioning and sometimes not knowing their classes (tankadins gemming for str while we're still on a progression-mode, tanking with Seal of RIghteousness even bosses, people not switching dps targets when told to, etc etc), but still it hurts me that I'll never ever again be able to do those bosses "properly". I'll always have to live with the crippled version of the challenges that lie ahead...
And no, changing guild is not an option here for way too many reasons... I just wish people could focus up a bit and do this, simply because they have the potential. But that's life :)
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:40 am

but still it hurts me that I'll never ever again be able to do those bosses "properly". I'll always have to live with the crippled version of the challenges that lie ahead...


This why hard-modes should not be nerfed unless broken or impossible. Particularly multi-level scaling ones like Freya's Knocks and 1-4 tower FL.
Nerf the normal modes, by all means. Thats a wonderful thing for the game as a whole. But nerfing the optional hard-modes which dont inhibit progress, only offer something spectacular to strive for, is silly. It removes accomplishment, not make it more accessible.

4-Tower FL in particular was a terrible choice for a nerf, because it is completely independant of class-stacking, and only slightly reliant on gear, and was therefore a unique accomplishment that skilled players who just didnt have the time or the opportunity to min/max themselves or have been inhibited by their guild's lack of progress could still beat and feel like they did something worthy of note.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:03 am

Joanadark wrote:4-Tower FL in particular was a terrible choice for a nerf, because it is completely independant of class-stacking, and only slightly reliant on gear, and was therefore a unique accomplishment that skilled players who just didnt have the time or the opportunity to min/max themselves or have been inhibited by their guild's lack of progress could still beat and feel like they did something worthy of note.


I'll agree with you for 25 man, but for 10 man, I'm not 100% sure it could have been done without good luck (since that matters a lot more in 10 man) and 25 man gear. Ten man FL, to me, feels more in-line with the other 10 man hard modes. Twenty-five did before the nerf, though. We knew we could have it, but it would take some wiping and progression, but we basically knew that class composition wasn't it.

And as I think I said in another thread (maybe not), it's stupid to have this fight be this hard at the beginning of the instance. If I were designing the instance, I would have done it differently, but would not have nerfed it so severely now. I agree with you about how silly it seems to nerf hard modes that people were doing already. If I had any one problem with hard modes, it's that you can't go in any order. At some point in the week, you have to decide that you'll just kill Mimiron on normal so that people can get their loot from Yogg. I guess Flame Leviathan was just the worst because it was fairly tough and at the VERY beginning before a few loot pinatas.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:54 am

And as I think I said in another thread (maybe not), it's stupid to have this fight be this hard at the beginning of the instance.


Optional hard-mode is optional.

FL is hardly Razorgore or Hydross.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby Threatco » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:05 am

I don't want loot to be free.

I just want loot to be reachable by my 29th rated guild on server and not for the rest :P

I mean, we may have done unnerfed yogg within a week or two, mabey less mabey more, it was possible just time consuming.

And the hard modes we would of got to eventualy when we had more people as geared as possible from the content we can clear.

But getting there a bit faster suits me just fine.
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Re: Yog, FL, and XT massive nerfs hotfixed in

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:22 am

Joanadark wrote:
And as I think I said in another thread (maybe not), it's stupid to have this fight be this hard at the beginning of the instance.


Optional hard-mode is optional.

FL is hardly Razorgore or Hydross.


I understand it's optional. That doesn't change, though, that the instance doesn't flow in difficulty in hard modes. That leads to what I said above: mainly that you have to cut progression short to do farm content because the difficulties are out of order. It's not a huge deal, but it's something I would like to see addressed in the next raid instance.
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