[25] Freya + Elders

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[25] Freya + Elders

Postby kasino » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:27 am

So the other night we decided to have a go at Freya + 1 elder (the one the casts the roots).

Curiously, our issue was not the snaplasher, if thats what your guess was going to be =P. In fact, we had minimal issues getting to phase 2. That is where the problem arises. Once phase 2 hit, without fail, we would get roots on the 3 people IMMEDIATLEY when pods were thrown out, resulting in deaths every single time. We would either not kill all the roots fast enough and the people who we're in them would die due to root damage +pod explosion, or we would loose a melee or 2 because they we're trying to get the roots dead before the pods exploded.

The best we did was Freya at 13 percent, fighting an uphill battle, and loosing people during every single pod dropping she did the entirety of phase 2. We tried Grouping(so melee could quickly free the rooted people) and trying to spread out RIGHT as she threw pods and that didnt work because she would throw roots down at the same time, resulting in all 3 rooted people getting owned by the 15+ pods around them. When that seemed not to be at all effective we switched to everyone in the raid trying to stay as spread out as possible, but still, we would loose 1-3 rooted people every single pod drop becuase...as people we're spread out, they couldnt kill all 3 roots in the 5 seconds or so that you have before the pods exploded.

Anyone got any tips for this by chance?
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Re: [25] Freay + Elders

Postby Belloc » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:51 am

Every DPS in your raid needs to have a macro to target and kill those roots. The roots display a message in the chat window, I believe, which means that any acceptable raider should know exactly when to start killing them.

Having everyone in melee range is ideal, for many reasons. First, everyone is conveniently located... right on top of you. Second, you will have a lot of passive AOE (whirlwinds, divine storms, cleaves, ground-based aoes, etc). If everyone switches targets immediately, the roots should be dead within 2 seconds, which is plenty of time to escape the explosions.


And don't armory me on this one -- our 25-man can't even get that far into the fight with roots up. We've got a solid group of 10 or so that could easily handle Freya + 3 on 10 man, but the rest just cannot seem to get the fight when you add an elder.
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Re: [25] Freay + Elders

Postby kasino » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:28 am

We do have every single person in the raid with that macro. And we all do switch immediatly, but they don't go down in 2 seconds. Each one of those roots has just under 60k hp. With 3 of them up, it just didnt seem that we could kill them fast enough.

To make things even worse, sometimes you would get pods, and then about 1 second later you would get the roots, leaving you with not enough time to get away from the pods before roots happend, but even less time to kill the roots off before the pods exploded.

Also, I dont know if this is because ONLY the one elder was active, but once you hit phase 2 on 25 man the roots we're coming significantly faster (literally every time pods we're droped, so were roots, which is maybe every 8-10 seconds or so?) The first time we got to phase 2 this was totally unexpected because we didnt even notice a speed up in root dropping during 10 man (and we do 3elder 10 man with really no problem)

Anyway, all 3 roots together are just about 175k hp (i think the roots actually have 57k hp each and now 60k). The math for killing all 3 within 2 seconds eqautes to just about 85k raidwide dps. Now, on a single target, with debuffs on and procs going, that is easy for a full raid to achieve, but, with 0 debuffs, and latency on target switching and the such, it just seems like that is a bit much.

Btw. We we're running 3 tanks 5 healers, leaving 17 "real" dps left to deal with the roots, so not including tank+healer dps, that requires that each of the 17 dps needs to burst out just over 5k dps every 10 seconds on undebuffed targets. Now maybe we just arent ready, but from what ive seen, not all class's are able to burst that much damage that often. Am i missing something here?
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Re: [25] Freay + Elders

Postby Belloc » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:51 am

I almost certainly exaggerated the amount of time they should be alive... but, really, it shouldn't be long. Classes can specifically hold their cooldowns for the roots, since the timing is very predictable at that point. Leave down the ground-based AOEs permanently, have mages start casting some AOEs either immediately or even beforehand... it's just a matter of everyone saving their "passive" aoes for that point and hitting everything as soon as that chat message comes up.

I don't know, I imagine it's just a practice thing. Probably just need to ensure that the cooldowns (whirlwinds, divine storms, etc.) are saved and used immediately and that all of the GBAoEs are down already. The way I'm picturing it is that warriors and rets and such are just using their normal rotation, having DS and Whirlwind on cooldown when they really need it.


Also, I'm not sure how many of these work, but it's worth thinking about. Can warlocks teleport out of roots? Can mages blink out? I'd imagine that rogues can killing spree out (but not vanish), bubbles, etc.


With all that said, I'll exit this thread, since I am operating somewhat off of assumptions and theory, having only put this stuff into effect on the 10 man hard mode, which, as you indicated, is different enough.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby kasino » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:40 pm

I guess that could all help out. But your "exageration" really doesnt seem to be one. From what i could tell, you really do only have about 2 seconds to kill the roots because you needed the other 2 seconds to get far enough away from the pods once you we're free.

We run 1 ret and 0 DPS warriors, so the insta aoe is limited.

Also, i know immunities work. And i know that mages "can" blink from roots, but they continue taking the damage from them anyway (though they are safe once the blink scince they are away from the pods)

Pre-casting Aoe may help though. I do see the problem arising with the mana cost and constant moving of it though (She takes a good 3-4 minutes to kill it seems, and moving and recasting expensive aoe abilities every 10 seconds is gonna be rough).

If thats the only way to deal with phase 2 then that sucks though. I was enjoying the challange of phase 1 with the elder, i didnt like how it actually got harder once we got out of phase 1.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Kishandra » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:04 am

Instead of looking at the raid's single target dps, when we learned this last night, I recognized this: nearly every class has an instant aoe ability of some sort.

Priests - don't really have any =/
Warlocks - hellfire
Mages - AE
Rogues - Fok
Druids - swipe
Hunters - multi/volley
Shaman - chain lightning, thunderstorm
Warriors - cleave, whirlwind, sweeping strikes, bladestorm
Paladin - divine storm
Deathknights - heartstrike, howling blast, unholy blight

But, seeing how roots are between 34k and 44k hp, all it takes is 1 instant ability from about 15 players to kill all 3 roots in 1 gcd. So our strat was to have everyone pile on top of each other, when Freya first casts the pods, no one move. A second later 3 roots will spawn which will be aoed down instantly, then everyone shift to another position to avoid the seed explosion.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Belloc » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:37 am

Kishandra wrote:Priests - don't really have any =/


They do, actually. Mind sear is an excellent spell to use for such an occasion :)
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby kasino » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:55 am

Hmm, if they only have 30-45k hp on 25 man (the roots that is) then i must have been mistaken, i thought they had 57k hp each.

At 44k, to kill in one GCD your assuming everyone hits with their instant for 2900. That does seem possible, and scince we actually use 17 dps'rs the number required for each at 44k hp (assuming you hit all 3 roots with it...which you should if your stacking correctly) is closer to 2600, add in the fact that most of the healers could toss a spell in there and it does seem possible.

One thing though, are you positive that they only have upwards of 45k hp? When i asked the people dpsing them the other night they had said 57k, the differnece doesnt seem like a lot, by absolutly every second does count. Either way, its what we're going to try next week.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Conaan! » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:57 am

a DK with AMS+IBF might be able to survive the pod pops as long as you arent completely stacked together, ret paladins with bubble can do it also, problems just the people in the roots, what might be best is having everyone stack, and having arms warriors/ret paladins type classes save their aoe abilities, so right as root is about to be cast, the warriors blade storming/whirlwinding and the ret pally is divine storming, which will give a tiny boost to the dps on the roots

like the above poster, i havent done the hard mode, but i have done the 10 man screw around with roots mode
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:16 am

Makes me wonder if it might be easier to do your Getting Back to Nature achievement while doing it with 3 trees. What this basically entails is keeping up your last wave of adds (you'd want the Ancient Conservator) while you kill her. You have to DPS through a little more healing, but the main selling point is that there are no bombs. So basically you're looking at the following:

Normal:
- Heals 12k HP per second (assuming you have MS)
- Must dodge seed bombs constantly and kill roots immediately or risk deaths.

Getting Back to Nature:
- Heals 24k HP per second (assuming you have MS)
- Must stay in mushrooms to DPS and heal.
- Whoever is afflicted by Nature's Fury needs to move out.
- Mushrooms give a 25 or 35% increase to damage done.
- Iron roots still need to be killed, but not as immediately.

/shrug. Anyone see a flaw with that plan?
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:23 am

moduspwnens wrote:/shrug. Anyone see a flaw with that plan?


The most annoying part would be only getting to try the strat on 1/3rd of your attempts.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:37 am

Jasari wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:/shrug. Anyone see a flaw with that plan?


The most annoying part would be only getting to try the strat on 1/3rd of your attempts.


You can probably pull it off if you have the Conservator on wave 5 and detonators on wave 6. I'm not sure what that puts your chances at. Besides, she's easily resettable, so it doesn't mean running back/rebuffing.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Panzerdin » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:43 am

Chances of it are two thirds. 1/3 that the conservator is wave 4, 2/3 that it's 5 or 6.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am

Panzerdin wrote:Chances of it are two thirds. 1/3 that the conservator is wave 4, 2/3 that it's 5 or 6.


Yeah but it can't be 5 if 6 is the trio. That's probably not doable.
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Re: [25] Freya + Elders

Postby Jasari » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:51 am

Panzerdin wrote:Chances of it are two thirds. 1/3 that the conservator is wave 4, 2/3 that it's 5 or 6.


I think it'd be a lot harder if the 3-add wave was last. So the odds of what Modus said happening (either the tree being last or it being 2nd AND the flowers being last) is 1/2.
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