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[25] Mimiron Hard Mode

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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Treck » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:09 am

WHAT?!
OH CMON...

I havnt found any place that confirms this, where did you hear about it? or from personal tries?
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:47 am

Treck wrote:WHAT?!
OH CMON...

I havnt found any place that confirms this, where did you hear about it? or from personal tries?


From 2-shotting it yesturday, going wtf?, and comparing the recounts to last week. Everything felt weird. Mines, flame ticks, napalm shells, rapid burst, even add damage was lol compared to before.
The reduction in damage is massive. There was something like over 1 million less healing required in p2 for heat wave damage alone.

We're considering dropping down to only 4 healers for this fight. Firefighter used to be the hardest thing in the game to heal.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Treck » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:23 am

I guess mimiron would be the next achievement to go for after you manage steelbreaker?
Freya+3 still remains a challenge i guess. A lot of guilds manage 2 adds, 3 adds is a bit to step up id guess.
A LOT more ppl will reach algalon this week for sure tho.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:28 am

before the nerf, roughly 3 times as many guilds had defeated 3-knock as had defeated firefighter.

3 x Knock on Wood (H):
127 (0.24%)

Firefighter (H):
41 (0.09%)

Now, I'd imagine those numbers will probably equalize before the end of the week.


I was reading a claim that the damage nerf was actually as high as 40%. I don't know if I buy that, so I'm gonna check the parses.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Splug » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:07 am

The damage changes were not uniform across the board, certain abilities were dropped different amounts. Flames are now 5k before resist, I believe they were 10k before. The emergency bots have had something changed about their silence even in 25; I'm not sure if it's a smaller radius or if they only hit people in the water stream with it, but they're much lower range than I saw on 10 last week. A 3-4% health reduction to everything is still just 3-4% less damage to be done, so it's like net-gaining about 3/4 of a damage dealer.

We almost brought it down on our first night of work yesterday. It's still not the easiest hard mode, but it's much more in line with everything else now. It's going to be absolutely trivial for anyone who had cleared it prior, but those who have not will still have a bit of work to do.

Freya will still be a road block for a very large number of guilds getting to Algalon, until she gets shut down too.

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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:18 pm

My raid leaders are convinced that with the nerf, we shouldn't bother killing firefighter bots that aren't close to the raid. What this means is that our phase 3 pretty much consists of our head kiter and myself kiting everything around the room as fires spawn and dealing with occasional silences and sprays, but virtually always walking around (and often through) fire. This naturally also leads to me (the guy picking up the assault and junk bots) occasionally missing the pickup of all of them because I'm basically doing a ton of (essentially) vital things at the same time.

I've put forth the idea of doing it a few times, but they disagree. We already kill the firefighting bots that are close anyway, so we're basically already losing some of the DPS required to kill firefighting bots but not gaining the massive benefit of everyone not having to kite things around or worry about silences the whole phase. So my question is: Post-nerf, what strategy do you find best for phase 3 of Mimiron (Hard)? Killing the firefighter bots immediately or only killing the ones around you and kiting?

EDIT: Any posts or explanations that would help if I pointed them here would be excellent.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby james31 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:59 am

Curious about this too. Emergency Fire Bots either spawning or heading to fires do silence, even with their aura range reduced. Lost players/tanks whilst repositioning (as a healer). Call me a terrible player, but it's pretty hard to spot them - know they spawn from the blue beams, but they don't look massively different to the scrapbots unless you track them.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:33 pm

To be quite honest, post-nerf there's even more reason to kill them than pre-nerf, because before certain classes could only get a hit or two in before being neutered by the silence, and now thats no longer the case and anyone can do it.
Our strat calls for pretty much all the DPS to switch to Fire bots for that first and second spawning. Doing it this way, you kill one set of fire bots before anything else spawns, which means you arent losing anything, you kill the second set right after the first assault bot dies and the tank is picking up the second one, meaning you barely lose anything, and if you get a third at all it will be as the head is dying and you are about to transition, and you can kill them off during the transition at leisure because maintaining flame cap wont matter any more because a frost bomb is coming.

Maintaining flame cap for p3 makes such an incredible difference to not maintaining it. The entire phase is significantly easier, and more control. The tank's job is less hectic, as is whoever is dealing with bomb bots and junk bots. The ranged DPS have will get a significantly higher DPS time, shortening the phase considerable, which self-amplifies in benefit because you will have less spawns over the course of the phase, meaning less DPS is required.

We even kill Fire Bots in 10-man, where argueably there's no reason to kill them whatsoever.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:31 pm

Yes, we finally pulled off this achievement tonight, after about the same amount of time it took our 10 man raid pre-nerf. They had dismissed the "kill firefighter bots immediately" strat clearly three times beforehand, but the way it ended up happening was that as we were learning the fight, we went slowly from:

    1. Just kill the firefighter bots if they get in the raid.
    to
    2. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn if they're close and they aren't in fire.
    to
    3. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn if they aren't in fire.
    to
    4. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn regardless.

It was a fairly slow transition, except from 3 to 4. Basically we had an officer in this last night of attempts who wasn't there much previously, and he just walked into the middle (since it's fire capped) and started killing the one that spawned on the far side. It was a little slow, so it would get a few fires extinguished. The next time, he just called for another ranged to do it with him, and it was done. The strategy I'd been begging to do on and off this whole time was finally being done, and it made our phase 3 basically as easy as phase 1.

Anyway, to make this a little more constructive for others: If you end up in my situation (your raid leader not wanting to do this strategy), I'd recommend slowly pressuring in this kind of a pattern. Often raid leaders get into the "well, it works our way so let's not try another way" when this fight really is all about minimizing the RNG that can mess you over. You can do phase one without positioning well, but a bad Napalm will kill people. You can do phase two without spreading fires well, but a Frost Bomb on melee (or especially two) and likely bad barrages will gimp your DPS. Phase three is no different, really. You can get by only killing the firefighter bots that bother you, but the RNG means sometimes it just won't work.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:43 pm

1. Just kill the firefighter bots if they get in the raid.
to
2. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn if they're close and they aren't in fire.
to
3. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn if they aren't in fire.
to
4. Kill the firefighter bots as they spawn regardless.


Yeah, this is pretty much the exact same progression that every guild I know of that worked on this fight made. Yet nobody seemed to ever want to learn from each other. Everyone had to figure it out for themselves.

Firefighter is 100% a control fight, and the difference between defeating it and learning it is the amount of control you exercise on it's mechanics. Just like modus said, its all minimizing RNG's potential to interfere with your ability to do your job.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:41 am

Last night was an odd occurrence. We two-shot the encounter, but the kill was very close due to bringing new people, tunnel vision, etc. In fact, it was so close that the self destruction sequence fully started (read: we're taking 13k ticks of fire damage) when he died. I bubbled, knowing that 12 seconds of 50% of lolprotDPS and being the sole rezzer afterward would be cool, plus no repair bill. What ended up happening, though, is that the self-destruction continued even after he died... and even after my bubble wore off. We went back to check, and it was exploding indefinitely. The chest was sitting right there in the middle of the room, but nobody could get to it to loot because they'd be killed nearly immediately!

Our RL had it set on Free for All to pick up cores (because he says it's bugged on 25 to not do it automatically), so simply opening the chest once wasn't enough to get anything out (Group Loot could've worked) other than the gold and emblems. We checked back several times afterward and he was still self-destructing. Anyway, our RL opened a GM ticket and the GM was able to send the items to the correct raid members, including my BiS cloak. :D I'm not sure if it's the bubble + kill after enrage starts or what, but I wasn't sure that a GM would send items based on what the raid leader wants even if there was no master looter for the kill. I suppose the bug may have made some lee-way on their part necessary, though.

TL;DR: If it bugs and he's indefinitely exploding after a kill, a GM will mail you the items.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:47 pm

It did that for Method's first kill too. Their movie showed them sending in 2 rogues with Cloak of Shadows and tanks with Shield Wall, Pain Supression, and Guardian Spirit all running on them to charge through the fire from the entrance to reach the chest.

By the way. I'm pretty sure you can change the loot setting after the boss dies but before you open the chest.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby itankforcash » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:19 am

Happened on my first kill too, but I just bubbled my way to the chest, looted everything and than made a GM ticket, surprised it hasn't been hotfixed yet.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:24 am

Joanadark wrote:By the way. I'm pretty sure you can change the loot setting after the boss dies but before you open the chest.

We did (to group loot), but it was still tagged as FFA. I bubbled and ran in and was able to get out the gold and emblems, but the loot window didn't come up.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Falibard » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:34 am

Happened to us last night on our first kill too. I ran in, grabbed the loot, got to the last piece and "Inventory is Full". /facepalm
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