[25] Mimiron Hard Mode

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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:20 am

Treck wrote:I just found that if i want to turn them, i walk closer into them, then out in the angle i want.


I definitely was not talking about turning, I was talking about moving. The most I'd get out of any of the bosses you mentioned was they'd decide they were too close to me and do that walk away and walk back in dealio. No other mob is as *consistently unpredictable* with his movements relative to yours as mimiron P4. It's not something that was difficult to adjust to, it's just something you needed to adjust to. Not entirely sure what the disagreement is.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Treck » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:07 am

The walking back and forth movement from the bosses is iirc only server - computer laggs that is getting corrected every now and then, so it might only be your computer showing the boss going back and forth, while the boss has actually stood there all the time.
As i remember it, its something that the servers dont show to your computer the exact position and movement all the time, to not take to much internetspace it gives your computer coordinates for where your computer should paint out the boss, and that info is sometimes a bit off if your constantly moving it, wich might make the boss look like hes going back and forth to correct this error.
If thats not what you meant, i really dont see where the problem in moving Mimiron is.
On Hardmode we kite it a lot of the time, and to make it easier for everyone so they know where the boss is gonna go, we try to always kite the boss so he is walking forward, that is so that the tank is walking backwards, not slowly backwards all the time, but bit by bit. If hes always chasing you, hes always infront of you.
I dont know if the moving is made difficult since i think mimirons hitbox is pretty small, so it make you walk out of range of his meele when you take a step to the right/left.
Every time i run back in after a shockblast, he insists on not facing me properly so meele wont have that good acces (especially when your doing hardmode), but after you moved into position, you turn him and it was never really hard when you understand how the mobs work.
Besides, you should try to avoid moving in P4 when laser is up, since thats when you turn him.
Only good tip i can give is really really keep your eyes off the torso/head, it makes you dizzy since its constantly spinning like crazy targetting ppl all the time, and can make you think the part your tanking is behaving that way aswell.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:00 am

Joanadark wrote:Also, please try to keep things civil. Discussions about tanking movement that aren't related to hard mode probably belong in the normal Mimiron thread.


You're right. To get back on topic, my 10 man group plans to get some shots in at Mimiron10 Hard tonight. It's our only serious obstacle left to Algalon, so I'm hoping that even if we don't pull it off, we get close enough that everyone doesn't get discouraged. The RL mentioned "having to get a DK" for the Plasma Blasts in P1, but I explained that with some external cooldowns, I'd be able to handle it. Besides, it's phase 1, so it's not like we're clearing most of the encounter to find out whether or not I can handle it.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby guillex » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:41 am

Original discussion has been split/merged into this one, as there was a huge derailment in the last topic. Please continue to discuss [25] Mimiron Hard Mode here.

Thank you.

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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:04 pm

It's an odd implementation. Yes, the melee damage is fairly meaningless unless things are falling apart. There were probably technical issues with rooting it since it could still spin.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:12 pm

Treck wrote:The walking back and forth movement from the bosses is iirc only server - computer laggs that is getting corrected every now and then, so it might only be your computer showing the boss going back and forth, while the boss has actually stood there all the time.


That's actually awesome to know. Has anybody noticed a pattern in the doomfire spawn points? Do they spawn under people or just randomly? It started looking to me a couple nights ago that they spawned under people. Also, how did everyone handle Napalm shell spacing in p1? Just power through it if multiple people got hit or was there better spacing in your raids?
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Has anybody noticed a pattern in the doomfire spawn points? Do they spawn under people or just randomly? It started looking to me a couple nights ago that they spawned under people.


They target 3 random people in the raid every 30 seconds, hitting them for an initial hit of like 7k damage, and then spawning a doomfire patch where that person was standing when hit.
The flames have a definate "head" from which their movement is directed. If you kite the "head" into melee range of phase 2 and it gets put out by his Flame Suppressant, you've effectively killed that flame and it will not continue to move. The other implication of this is that if, say, a mage is the nearest target to a flame head and it moves towards him a few steps and the mage blinks directly to the opposite side of the flame, the flame's tail end will not immidiately start creeping towards him on that opposite side, but rather the "head" has to turn around and work it's way back over group already set alite to reach him again. That is, assuming that the mage is still the closest target to the "head" after he blinks.

Theres a lot of clever flame control you can pull off with proper spacing, awareness, and movement.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:44 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Has anybody noticed a pattern in the doomfire spawn points? Do they spawn under people or just randomly? It started looking to me a couple nights ago that they spawned under people.


They target 3 random people in the raid every 30 seconds, hitting them for an initial hit of like 7k damage, and then spawning a doomfire patch where that person was standing when hit.
The flames have a definate "head" from which their movement is directed. If you kite the "head" into melee range of phase 2 and it gets put out by his Flame Suppressant, you've effectively killed that flame and it will not continue to move. The other implication of this is that if, say, a mage is the nearest target to a flame head and it moves towards him a few steps and the mage blinks directly to the opposite side of the flame, the flame's tail end will not immidiately start creeping towards him on that opposite side, but rather the "head" has to turn around and work it's way back over group already set alite to reach him again. That is, assuming that the mage is still the closest target to the "head" after he blinks.

Theres a lot of clever flame control you can pull off with proper spacing, awareness, and movement.


I like that. Wouldn't it be possible to have 3 people pull the flames together to one person then have that one person (possibly the mage) blink back and forth? Is that practical or do you run into range issues with healers?
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:36 am

So, we've very nearly got Firefighter on 10-man, and I have to say that phase 3 is by far the hardest part. P1 is very short, and fairly easy once you find a good way of controlling the fire. P2 is also very short, but it's a little more healing intensive. We've never had a problem in this phase with 3 healers and JoL. P4 is just like P1, except the tank damage is insignificant and you have to dodge laser barrage which is fairly trivial now that he doesn't freak out whenever the MT coughs. We got through P3 once with under 2 minutes on the berserk timer, and it was very stable until we ran out of time.

Phase 3 on the other hand takes a lot of control. Fire needs to be constantly kited around. Bomb Bots need to be taken care of before they pop on the raid, preferably by a method other than just having someone stand on them and eat the damage for ~90% of their hp constantly. Emergency Bots need to be killed if they get close because they will silence you at dreadful times. The boss needs to be positioned in a way that lets you put the core under him. Junk bots have to be kept off the healers. Assault bots need to be killed promptly. All this, and you need to do it cleanly and quickly with efficient DPS or you'll run out of time on the berserk.

Faro wrote:
Treck wrote:The walking back and forth movement from the bosses is iirc only server - computer laggs that is getting corrected every now and then, so it might only be your computer showing the boss going back and forth, while the boss has actually stood there all the time.


That's actually awesome to know. Has anybody noticed a pattern in the doomfire spawn points? Do they spawn under people or just randomly? It started looking to me a couple nights ago that they spawned under people. Also, how did everyone handle Napalm shell spacing in p1? Just power through it if multiple people got hit or was there better spacing in your raids?


Perhaps some of it is, but I seem to recall many instances where a boss would be walking back and forth like that and use a frontal cone ability that hit people in front of him in a way that would be impossible if he wasn't really making those movements. Some mobs are just plain squirrelly.

Doomfires spawn directly on top of people, as do Napalm Shells which need to be spread out for at least somewhat. Melee certainly shouldn't be all standing in one pile. In 10-man it was pretty rough if more than one person got shelled, I imagine that's a bit more lenient in 25man with the additional healers.

As for the nerfs, I'm glad they made those changes. Mimiron is still by far the hardest Watcher.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:10 am

Firefighter 10-man down. Will be looking at Algalon tomorrow night.

The Mines and Rockets nerfs were massive. Disgustingly so. Still a fairly technical fight though. 25-man is more difficut due to the fact of simply having a ton more people that need to be both consolidated and yet spread out at once.

Had a heartbreaking wipe where the bottom healed in the same time-stamp as us killing the middle and head.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:32 am

PsiVen wrote:
Faro wrote:
Treck wrote:The walking back and forth movement from the bosses is iirc only server - computer laggs that is getting corrected every now and then, so it might only be your computer showing the boss going back and forth, while the boss has actually stood there all the time.


That's actually awesome to know. Has anybody noticed a pattern in the doomfire spawn points? Do they spawn under people or just randomly? It started looking to me a couple nights ago that they spawned under people. Also, how did everyone handle Napalm shell spacing in p1? Just power through it if multiple people got hit or was there better spacing in your raids?


Perhaps some of it is, but I seem to recall many instances where a boss would be walking back and forth like that and use a frontal cone ability that hit people in front of him in a way that would be impossible if he wasn't really making those movements. Some mobs are just plain squirrelly.


I am almost 100% sure that I've seen Grobbulus wipe us (well, a long time ago) by doing that "you're inside my hitbox, so I'm gonna turn around, walk slowly away while hitting you, then turn back around" as he sprayed slime across the room. I don't think it's a client-side thing.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:39 am

PsiVen wrote:So, we've very nearly got Firefighter on 10-man, and I have to say that phase 3 is by far the hardest part. P1 is very short, and fairly easy once you find a good way of controlling the fire. P2 is also very short, but it's a little more healing intensive. We've never had a problem in this phase with 3 healers and JoL. P4 is just like P1, except the tank damage is insignificant and you have to dodge laser barrage which is fairly trivial now that he doesn't freak out whenever the MT coughs. We got through P3 once with under 2 minutes on the berserk timer, and it was very stable until we ran out of time.

Phase 3 on the other hand takes a lot of control. Fire needs to be constantly kited around. Bomb Bots need to be taken care of before they pop on the raid, preferably by a method other than just having someone stand on them and eat the damage for ~90% of their hp constantly. Emergency Bots need to be killed if they get close because they will silence you at dreadful times. The boss needs to be positioned in a way that lets you put the core under him. Junk bots have to be kept off the healers. Assault bots need to be killed promptly. All this, and you need to do it cleanly and quickly with efficient DPS or you'll run out of time on the berserk.


It's good to have this info. We dove into 10 man Firefighter and were pleasantly surprised by its difficulty. Tough, but not as soul-crushingly tough as many had expected. I'm going to pick up a HoSalv glyph to help with P1 Plasma Blasts, and we learned that the Frost Bombs' radius is massive... probably 20 or 25 yards. We never actually made it to phase 4 but it's good to know that you like that better than phase 3 because phase 3 was pretty rough for us. Ultimately, though, I'm sure it's something we can handle. I explained that I'd really like the first Algalon kill even if it is in 10 man.

Also, is there something putting out fires in phase 4? I thought it was neat that he does it himself in P1, the frost bombs do it in P2, and the fire bots do it in P3.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Belloc » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:24 am

moduspwnens wrote:
PsiVen wrote:
Perhaps some of it is, but I seem to recall many instances where a boss would be walking back and forth like that and use a frontal cone ability that hit people in front of him in a way that would be impossible if he wasn't really making those movements. Some mobs are just plain squirrelly.


I am almost 100% sure that I've seen Grobbulus wipe us (well, a long time ago) by doing that "you're inside my hitbox, so I'm gonna turn around, walk slowly away while hitting you, then turn back around" as he sprayed slime across the room. I don't think it's a client-side thing.


Not sure if this is what you saw with Grobbulus, but it is certainly a possibility:

Anytime a mob has another mob near it, they will reposition. For instance, whenever Auriaya spawns the guardians, she will move around constantly until they are no longer near her. When Grobbulus spawns slimes, he'll move around as long as they are near him. If you didn't kill a previous slime before he spawned new ones, it's highly possible that he'll keep moving around.

As far as hitbox = movement issues, turning on walk has worked in every case for me. Kiting Grobbulus with walk on has resulted in perfect movement every time. I'm able to position myself at max melee range on bosses by turning on walk... etc. Walk :)
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Laz » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:09 pm

Belloc wrote:As far as hitbox = movement issues, turning on walk has worked in every case for me. Kiting Grobbulus with walk on has resulted in perfect movement every time. I'm able to position myself at max melee range on bosses by turning on walk... etc. Walk :)

This works for me, too. You have to pay attention on Mimiron to get out of shock blast, though. :)
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:27 am

Right, but that's just because of timing (affected by latency) not because there's something magical about walking. Surely we've all been run over by a boss while standing completely still before? They don't have the code for positioning the specific to each model combination, so you get some "buggy" behavior. Most of the time it does not matter and you can readjust, but on mimiron those bugs mattered.
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