[25] Mimiron Hard Mode

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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Panzerdin » Sun May 31, 2009 7:50 am

Joanadark wrote:
Most guilds who've downed it SO FAR are miles above average.


Fixed.
Time is the ultimate nerf. Wait until the encounter is mapped out and strats posted all over bosskillers before placing judgement.

Well, clearly, the guilds who haven't downed it so far haven't downed it. That's a tautology.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Jacopo » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:42 am

I knew they would nerf this encounter. Its clearly much harder than any of the other watchers hard modes. I don't have much of an opinion either way if they nerf it or not because my guild is a month or so a way on 25 man regardless. What exactly are the nerfs if you don't mind me asking? I cant seem to find them even on the ptr notes.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:54 am

Jacopo wrote:I knew they would nerf this encounter. Its clearly much harder than any of the other watchers hard modes. I don't have much of an opinion either way if they nerf it or not because my guild is a month or so a way on 25 man regardless. What exactly are the nerfs if you don't mind me asking? I cant seem to find them even on the ptr notes.


Well, one nerf is that mines are going to hit for less and despawn faster.

I don't personally consider it a nerf (more of a "fix"), but in P4, the lower part will be rooted while the Laser Barrage is happening. This will eliminate the positioning bugs and weird "jumping behind/beside you while moving him" issues that gib tanks. I think there was one other bullet note, but I forgot what it was.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:25 am

Rockets in ph 2 and 4 will travel from the Boss to the target slower and will have a tendency to prefer ranged targets, if possible.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Seloei » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:47 am

I wouldn't call the rockets a 'nerf' and the base stunned while barrage is just a fix. It will make it easier and remove a lot of the randomness, mines are not the real killers if you have atleast a few braincells. Only tried 10man hardmode and failed at p2.

It won't be "nerfed to bits" like some fights "lolwutignis?" but it will be made easier. The real tough part is to reach p4 with a full intact raid with moderately controlled fires. That's where the "nerf" is in effect the most. Because mines are only killers there, so are missiles and random spitzing barrage.

This is a hardmode, it's not impossible since some have done it. It will get nerfed sometime in the near future, before 3.2 comes out for sure, but not yet.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:17 pm

The nerf isnt that the base is getting rooted in place during spinning up, its actually getting STUNNED. As in there will be zero tank damage whatsoever during spinning up. The tank can even run to an entirely different section of the room freely and wait for the boss to come out of stun and come to him.

Mines will not explode if stepped on for 5 seconds after being initially placed, which is a massive nerf to their danger. Particularly on hard mode. It's easy for a healer or ranged or melee running back in from shock blast to get gibbed because a set of mines is thrown right on top of where they are standing. particularly if youre moving the boss.

Rockets went from a tiny red targeting reticle on the floor to a MASSIVE REDICULOUS HUGE OBVIOUS BEAM OF LIGHT FROM GOD THAT IS BRIGHT RED AND TURNS YOUR WHOLE CHARACTER RED AND OMG YOURE GONNA GET HIT BY ROCKET. You dont even need to pay attention to rockets any more.
On top of that, theyre doubling the time before they hit, and making it so they shouldnt ever target melee unless melee get too far away from the hitbox.
Apparently rockets were pretty hard.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby itankforcash » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:04 am

moduspwnens wrote:I don't personally consider it a nerf (more of a "fix"), but in P4, the lower part will be rooted while the Laser Barrage is happening. This will eliminate the positioning bugs and weird "jumping behind/beside you while moving him" issues that gib tanks. I think there was one other bullet note, but I forgot what it was.


great, one of the only fights where you have to pay attention as a tank (council + freya hardmode 25 being the other exceptions) and the "hardest" tanking aspect is being removed.

+ there is no positioning bugs, while hes casting laser barrage if you are in a bad position stand in front of the laser barrage and run right through the boss so you are perfectly 180 behind the barrage, you have the time to do this if you are fast.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Serelynn » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:31 am

Mines, followed by Laser Barrage and Shock Blast at the same time. It happens all the time.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby itankforcash » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:40 am

Serelynn wrote:Mines, followed by Laser Barrage and Shock Blast at the same time. It happens all the time.


This was fixed weeks ago.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Rehlachs » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:09 am

itankforcash wrote:
Serelynn wrote:Mines, followed by Laser Barrage and Shock Blast at the same time. It happens all the time.


This was fixed weeks ago.


The first barrage was delayed by a prior patch. Due to different cooldowns (SB ~35s, LB ~60s) and the difference between their first casts (~15s from LB to SB) the 4th SB and 3rd LB are still kind of simultaneous. The same problem, delayed by 2 minutes.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:18 am

itankforcash wrote:great, one of the only fights where you have to pay attention as a tank (council + freya hardmode 25 being the other exceptions) and the "hardest" tanking aspect is being removed.

+ there is no positioning bugs, while hes casting laser barrage if you are in a bad position stand in front of the laser barrage and run right through the boss so you are perfectly 180 behind the barrage, you have the time to do this if you are fast.


There is nothing fun or challenging about having to know or learn a gimmick to something as simple as turning. It is especially not fun or challenging when it's in the final phase of the encounter and failure means a raid wipe. I pay attention, I'm out for Shock Blasts, I don't hit mines, and I don't get hit by rockets. When it's time to turn around the boss, I do my best to turn myself around him.

If there weren't any positioning bugs, you wouldn't have to explain to me a workaround of how I can turn around the boss without it killing me. It bothers me when people say things like that. If they stunned him, then in the sense that he's not hitting the tank, it's a nerf, but his melee damage is inconsequential anyway. I would have preferred a root (meaning either the tank would have to stay in, effectively), or a heavy slow (probably would have done it), or some less buggy movement mechanics.

Joanadark wrote:Mines will not explode if stepped on for 5 seconds after being initially placed, which is a massive nerf to their danger. Particularly on hard mode. It's easy for a healer or ranged or melee running back in from shock blast to get gibbed because a set of mines is thrown right on top of where they are standing. particularly if youre moving the boss.

Rockets went from a tiny red targeting reticle on the floor to a MASSIVE REDICULOUS HUGE OBVIOUS BEAM OF LIGHT FROM GOD THAT IS BRIGHT RED AND TURNS YOUR WHOLE CHARACTER RED AND OMG YOURE GONNA GET HIT BY ROCKET. You dont even need to pay attention to rockets any more.
On top of that, theyre doubling the time before they hit, and making it so they shouldnt ever target melee unless melee get too far away from the hitbox.
Apparently rockets were pretty hard.


These were all nerfs. They could have just made the rockets a little easier for stacked melee to see and I would have been satisfied.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:39 am

Rehlachs wrote:
itankforcash wrote:
Serelynn wrote:Mines, followed by Laser Barrage and Shock Blast at the same time. It happens all the time.


This was fixed weeks ago.


The first barrage was delayed by a prior patch. Due to different cooldowns (SB ~35s, LB ~60s) and the difference between their first casts (~15s from LB to SB) the 4th SB and 3rd LB are still kind of simultaneous. The same problem, delayed by 2 minutes.

Nothing quite like a soft enrage ;p
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[25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:21 am

itankforcash wrote:
It's funny calling something "different" to tank a bug.


There's currently no boss in the game that works like mimiron's p4, so it is something different. It's also something poorly implemented from a tank positioning stand point. If I move to my left a little bit with a normal mob facing in front of me, I expect the mob to swivel in so that if I kept moving left in a straight line he'd end up to my right, assuming the original orientation. Mimiron took the slightest *hint* of a move left as a sign that he needed to completely readjust to either my left or my right, he didn't really care which. That's the problem most people had here. Do I think the stun was the right idea? Not at all. Did I find tanking p4 fun? Nope. Did I think it was difficult? Nope. But it *definitely* was not working the way normal mobs did.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Treck » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:34 am

Faro wrote:There's currently no boss in the game that works like mimiron's p4, so it is something different. It's also something poorly implemented from a tank positioning stand point. If I move to my left a little bit with a normal mob facing in front of me, I expect the mob to swivel in so that if I kept moving left in a straight line he'd end up to my right, assuming the original orientation. Mimiron took the slightest *hint* of a move left as a sign that he needed to completely readjust to either my left or my right, he didn't really care which. That's the problem most people had here. Do I think the stun was the right idea? Not at all. Did I find tanking p4 fun? Nope. Did I think it was difficult? Nope. But it *definitely* was not working the way normal mobs did.


I find most mobs work that way, its just that on those mobs their movement isnt as vital.
Mobs dont always do what you want them to do.
I can remember a number of times ive tried turning bosses like grobbolus, sapphiron, sarth, malygos, kelthusad, mimiron, the crazy cat lady etc etc. most bosses infact, its just that its never as vital as on mimiron.
When I want them to turn say 30degree angle, instead they decide to strafe a few steps to the side, and continue hitting me from the very same angle, but moved a bit.
I just found that if i want to turn them, i walk closer into them, then out in the angle i want.
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Re: [25] Mimiron Hard Mode

Postby Seloei » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:46 am

This is a nerf to phase4, which is undoubtedly the 'hardest' phase on firefighter, but i still hold true to what i said. Unless the melee are stupid and can't look around for 2-3 seconds to see where the mines have landed and the fires are to avoid them. They deserve to die. This change just makes the fight a lot easier for them, because apparently, they can't see the big red glowing target.
Same goes for ranged and rockets.

The only real nerf here i can see is the rocket strike targeting and duration. His melee damage from the base is, like someone said, not a problem. 10man you can block 1/3 or half even in BV gear, in 25man it's about the same as what trash hits you for. Don't see why the stun is a 'nerf' to tanking.
Rocket strike was "amplified" to be more visible quite early in the instance, so it is not a 3.1.3 nerf.

How about we stop complaining about the nerfs and get back on track on how to beat this fight instead of randomly accusing / defending?
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