General Vezax Hard Mode

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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Fri May 29, 2009 2:31 pm

Avengeance wrote:...And they cant bubble hearth, so dont reroll.


Sold. I really love the paladin class in pretty much every way and I'd hate to have to reroll for the sake of min/max.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Splug » Fri May 29, 2009 2:34 pm

Faro wrote:
Splug wrote:Aye. I haven't been doing hard-mode work on my alts. ;)

-Splug


Alright, I love my job as a main tank and I love knowing that I'm doing my job to the best of my abilities. Right now though I really feel like I'm not because a DK could do it better. While I realize a paladin *can* tank everything in the game, is it more efficient from a min/max perspective to reroll to a DK? This is aimed more at Splug than anyone but everyone can chime in :).
Short term, possibly. There are certain situations where death knights are not balanced, and the throughput mitigation is just too high. Long term, no. There will always be someone on top, and if it hasn't been painstakingly obvious since the release of 3.0, Blizzard is trying to slowly even things out. The big man on campus could be the runt in a week. That said, death knights post-sanctuary nerf don't have nearly the single-target threat I've seen out of paladins. The survivability is amazing, and there are a lot of impressive gimmicks, but blood just doesn't put out the numbers paladins are capable of. So I'd say it's well worth your time to ensure you have access to a tank from at least three out of the four classes (if not all four) on your roster. Just be ready to rise up or stand down whenever the momentum shifts, or an encounter plays to you or someone else. This encounter is a perfect example; as I mentioned earlier here, running the paladin as an animus tank removed the threat issues we had there - it benefitted the raid. Blood death knights are stronger for Vezax himself, due to regeneration being a sustainable resource where healing is non-renewable. I would not recommend changing mains because the grass is greener now; by the time you climb the fence, the seasons can change.

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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Fri May 29, 2009 4:05 pm

We currently have a Prot tank and a DK tank on the roster with me. The DK would rather be dpsing though, which is why I'm wondering if it's not just beneficial to have me with a tank with a shield and a tank without one. I'm sold on keeping the paladin though :).
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby PsiVen » Sat May 30, 2009 4:30 am

I'm surprised you chose a paladin for that, because while the threat may be there, his DPS must be utterly useless in the other phases. Not really looking forward to trying out 2-tanks and having my job be 'afk for 4 minutes'.

On the other hand, I would totally publish a video of myself playing Peggle, tanking the Animus, and then going back to Peggle.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Falibard » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:13 am

PsiVen wrote:I'm surprised you chose a paladin for that, because while the threat may be there, his DPS must be utterly useless in the other phases. Not really looking forward to trying out 2-tanks and having my job be 'afk for 4 minutes'.

On the other hand, I would totally publish a video of myself playing Peggle, tanking the Animus, and then going back to Peggle.


I'd watch.

That's pretty much how I feel this whole time I'm tanking Steelbreaker for hard mode council. The hardest part of that fight is not letting my mind wander and miss something (See: Rune of Power >.>).
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:40 am

I think I posted this in the other thread, but with Divine Sacrifice and HoSac, you can have a 30%-40% DR (well, damage transfer) to the tank for every single surge if you're OTing. One thing I also do is interrupt his Searing Flames when he casts it soon after enraging, because the interrupters often get "juked."

I never see this mentioned, but it seems to me like it'd be a massive DPS increase to either tank him so that the melee can get into a Shadow Crash (Enh Shamans, Ret Paladins, DKs will love this), or to tank him so you're in one yourself if threat is a problem (and I see that happen often with other tanks). I saw someone say something like "Well we kite him to conserve healer mana." It's your raid, but I'd think that the DPS gained from standing still would mean healers wouldn't have to keep the tank up for as long, and the gibs that sometimes happen due to healer repositioning wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Kind of offtopic, but how do the outside damage reductions stack? I know that if I HoSac and DivSac, only one of them works, but what about a HoSac and a Shield Wall, or a DivSac and Pain Suppression?
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Splug » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:39 am

The sacrifice idea is actually pretty cool, I'll have to see about stealing that. It should stack with IBF nicely, and actually reduce his damage during surge.

Moving him into a crash is probably a bad idea for hard mode. Casters have to go to zero dps (or wand dps) any time they're not in a crash, so you'd net lose more from them not having a crash to stand in than you'd gain from melee being in it. Since they have to also remain at range from Vezax to ensure a melee doesn't pull a crash into the raid, it's also risky to move him and potentially wipe the raid as ranged damage repositions.

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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Karaghiosis » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:46 am

if going hand of sac route, it can also be talented up to 40% transfer to be same as divine sac.

It appeared to have stacked for reduction in my 10 man last week. but if the paladin isnt bubble/HoP for it then be ready to loh/healthstone/pot or get another healer to drop some hots. 40% dmg transfer on 10 man got me pretty low a couple times so on 25 it may not be possible without damage prevention.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:56 am

Splug wrote:The sacrifice idea is actually pretty cool, I'll have to see about stealing that. It should stack with IBF nicely, and actually reduce his damage during surge.

Moving him into a crash is probably a bad idea for hard mode. Casters have to go to zero dps (or wand dps) any time they're not in a crash, so you'd net lose more from them not having a crash to stand in than you'd gain from melee being in it. Since they have to also remain at range from Vezax to ensure a melee doesn't pull a crash into the raid, it's also risky to move him and potentially wipe the raid as ranged damage repositions.

-Splug


Vezax doesn't cleave, though, and the healers are out of melee to be targeted for Shadow Crash. Why not let both melee and ranged have it? You could probably take yet another step and have a designated "Shadow Crash taker" by having everyone but that guy stand in melee (healers out of the shadow crash, naturally) and that guy watching to kind of "kite" the Shadow Crashes in a circle. A Resto Druid would probably be best for that kind of thing.

WoWWiki says that he only casts Mark of the Faceless on players that are at least 15 yards away from him, so I'd guess it'd only hit that one guy, who would naturally not be around anyone. Seems like a solid strat unless there's something I'm missing.

Karaghiosis wrote:if going hand of sac route, it can also be talented up to 40% transfer to be same as divine sac.

It appeared to have stacked for reduction in my 10 man last week. but if the paladin isnt bubble/HoP for it then be ready to loh/healthstone/pot or get another healer to drop some hots. 40% dmg transfer on 10 man got me pretty low a couple times so on 25 it may not be possible without damage prevention.


Just keep in mind that the damage transferred is capped. So if you pop Hand of Sacrifice on the tank (limited at 100% of your health), you need literally only the tiniest heal while taking that damage to stay alive. On Vezax, you're actually (generally) not taking damage from other sources, so it's safer than usual. For DivSac, it's capped at 150%, so you'll need at least half of your health in healing to survive its full duration. The majority of the time, though, the tank avoids half the hits and it won't reach the cap anyway (in my experience).
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Faro » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:17 am

I believe the "that guy" strat only works if there are several targets outside of Vezax's range.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:27 am

Faro wrote:I believe the "that guy" strat only works if there are several targets outside of Vezax's range.


What do you mean?

EDIT: You may be able to take that same strat another halfstep forward by tanking Vezax directly on top of the Shadow Crashes, which would allow for the tank (if Paladin or DK) to put out some serious threat.
Last edited by moduspwnens on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Corpsicle » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:42 am

I believe there are a minimum number of range targets required to ensure that shadow crash and mark of the faceless don't get aimed at melee. I want to say 3 in 10 man and 7 in 25 man based on other threads. From my own experience, 3 sounds right for 10 man.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:48 am

Corpsicle wrote:I believe there are a minimum number of range targets required to ensure that shadow crash and mark of the faceless don't get aimed at melee. I want to say 3 in 10 man and 7 in 25 man based on other threads. From my own experience, 3 sounds right for 10 man.


I'll have to check this out. WoWWiki just says "won't cast on melee," but I know how wikis can be.
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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby Splug » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:52 am

If there are fewer than X targets outside of melee range (about 2 on 10-man, about 6 on 25) for shadow crash or mark of the faceless, one will be selected from within melee range. If you hop to about 5 minutes into this video, you can see what happens when you drop down to one too few people at range. So you would need more than one person outside of melee range.

Even disregarding that, you're looking at adding a non-trivial amount of movement to the fight. Each crash would be a minimum of about 15-20 yards away, and each time he's moved all the ranged who are using the previous crash would need to relocate to the new one (otherwise you risk moving him to a crash where there were people already at, and having a crash incoming as the raid moves there). I'd be very suprised if this additional movement doesn't cost more than it gains, just from casters having drastically higher downtime. Finally, there's the risk of latency causing the melee to be just a hair out of range and become legal targets for shadow crash during each run.

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Re: General Vezax Hard Mode

Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:03 pm

Splug wrote:If there are fewer than X targets outside of melee range (about 2 on 10-man, about 6 on 25) for shadow crash or mark of the faceless, one will be selected from within melee range. If you hop to about 5 minutes into this video, you can see what happens when you drop down to one too few people at range. So you would need more than one person outside of melee range.

Fair enough. Two might be do-able.

Splug wrote:Even disregarding that, you're looking at adding a non-trivial amount of movement to the fight. Each crash would be a minimum of about 15-20 yards away, and each time he's moved all the ranged who are using the previous crash would need to relocate to the new one (otherwise you risk moving him to a crash where there were people already at, and having a crash incoming as the raid moves there). I'd be very suprised if this additional movement doesn't cost more than it gains, just from casters having drastically higher downtime. Finally, there's the risk of latency causing the melee to be just a hair out of range and become legal targets for shadow crash during each run.

Casters are going to be relocating to Shadow Crashes anyway, so I'm not sure I understand how casters would lose any time DPSing that they wouldn't normally lose anyway. Besides, my last guild used the kiting strategy for surges (in 25), which is essentially what this is except the kiting was without the DPS increase and without the healers necessarily being in position (made it tough). I'm not saying that an inferior strategy working means mine would, I'm just illustrating that moving the boss isn't quite as detrimental as you might think. Melee have no trouble keeping up with him while enraged and certainly wouldn't with a tank walking backwards over a Shadow Crash.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this idea well. I'll make some pictures or something.
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