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[10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Avengeance » Tue May 19, 2009 8:13 am

I always have a conspiracy that a random GM is always spying on peoples raids... and they just like to screw you over by taking control of mobs.

It explains many "odd" happenings in the game and makes you feel better.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Mordinm » Tue May 19, 2009 12:18 pm

Aleph wrote:I don't mean to be rude here but nobody seems to be actually reading all of what I've written. We are not running into DR. The taunt's force-agro-switch is applied. The threat modifier is not.

This is happening well after the pull. Not "5 seconds" well after... 8+ charges after. Each unbalancing strike gets 1 taunt, so unless unbalancing strikes is happening often enough to itself trigger the DR then it's completely not the issue. And if it is, then there's no helping it anyway.

Apparently nobody else has seen this specific problem, and we killed him anyway, so we'll just blame Blizzard's typical buggy implementation and deal with it.



It's not rude everyone has been ignoring your question.

The answer is that taunt is working as intended and it should be working similarly on 10 or 25 man hard mode or not. Perhaps you've just been unlucky of 10 man hard mode with Chain Lightening and UB lining up together. Taunt give you the threat of the player the boss is targeting if that player has higher threat then you. As you mentioned this is happen to you during his Chain Lightening cast. I seem to recall seeing the agro warning a time or two before getting a chain lightening to the face while healing this fight. That means while casting CL the boss is not targeting the other tank. As a result of this you don't get his threat. Instead it checks your threat vs joe schome dps or healer sees you have more threat and just applies the taunt debuff.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Falibard » Tue May 19, 2009 1:16 pm

Aleph wrote:I don't mean to be rude here but nobody seems to be actually reading all of what I've written. We are not running into DR. The taunt's force-agro-switch is applied. The threat modifier is not.

This is happening well after the pull. Not "5 seconds" well after... 8+ charges after. Each unbalancing strike gets 1 taunt, so unless unbalancing strikes is happening often enough to itself trigger the DR then it's completely not the issue. And if it is, then there's no helping it anyway.

Apparently nobody else has seen this specific problem, and we killed him anyway, so we'll just blame Blizzard's typical buggy implementation and deal with it.


I have seen this same issue before, twice. It has happened to me once on my pally and once my DK. It hasn't been a consistent issue so I don't know if there is a real answer for your question. What I did when I was on my pally and we had the problem was just stop attacking and salv or bubble to make sure I wouldn't pull back. A bad miss or a weak attack isn't going to be enough aggro for them to hold the boss off you and if they have to taunt again to pull it off they can run into DR issues.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Avengeance » Tue May 19, 2009 1:31 pm

Mordinm wrote:
Aleph wrote:I don't mean to be rude here but nobody seems to be actually reading all of what I've written. We are not running into DR. The taunt's force-agro-switch is applied. The threat modifier is not.

This is happening well after the pull. Not "5 seconds" well after... 8+ charges after. Each unbalancing strike gets 1 taunt, so unless unbalancing strikes is happening often enough to itself trigger the DR then it's completely not the issue. And if it is, then there's no helping it anyway.

Apparently nobody else has seen this specific problem, and we killed him anyway, so we'll just blame Blizzard's typical buggy implementation and deal with it.



It's not rude everyone has been ignoring your question.

The answer is that taunt is working as intended and it should be working similarly on 10 or 25 man hard mode or not. Perhaps you've just been unlucky of 10 man hard mode with Chain Lightening and UB lining up together. Taunt give you the threat of the player the boss is targeting if that player has higher threat then you. As you mentioned this is happen to you during his Chain Lightening cast. I seem to recall seeing the agro warning a time or two before getting a chain lightening to the face while healing this fight. That means while casting CL the boss is not targeting the other tank. As a result of this you don't get his threat. Instead it checks your threat vs joe schome dps or healer sees you have more threat and just applies the taunt debuff.

Not quite, taunt (HoR for this matter) copies the threat of the aggro holder, although the boss might be targetting someone to chain light, the aggro holder is still the other tank. If you use RD while he switches target, then it can cause problems if he switchs back fast enough that RD lands on the previous raid member but boss is already targetting MT again).
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Mordinm » Tue May 19, 2009 6:25 pm

Avengeance wrote:Not quite, taunt (HoR for this matter) copies the threat of the aggro holder, although the boss might be targetting someone to chain light, the aggro holder is still the other tank. If you use RD while he switches target, then it can cause problems if he switchs back fast enough that RD lands on the previous raid member but boss is already targetting MT again).


I'm not quite sure what you mean by "aggro." I'm used to that term meaning the bosses primary target which in this case is most certainly not the other tank. While casting chain lightening he is casting and that means not melee attacking anyone. He also is not targeting the other tank. So I don't see any demonstrable way that the other tank has aggro. In fact if the OP is to be believed on his taunt failing to equalize his threat with the other tank when he taunts as Thorim is casting it seems to be fairly strong evidence that the other tank does not in fact have aggro.

There are bosses that fire off abilities at random players without changing aggro. Miniron and the Assembly of Iron's Runemaster come to mind, but Thorim isn't one of them. He switches aggro and casts lightening bolt. After that aggro returns to the tank.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Avengeance » Tue May 19, 2009 7:00 pm

What i mean is, when he change target to cast a chain lightning, that targetted person dont suddenly gain top threat - there is no aggro drop or change. The top aggro is still the original tank, and when he finish cast he still goes back to that tank - normal taunts (except RD) shouldnt care what the boss is targetting, it only cares whos the top threat. That being said, if a ranged dps is 20% over the current aggro holder in threat, and you taunt, you don't actually get the threat of that ranged dps, because he has a 30% margin before he officially pulls aggro.

That of course is just my theory, i could be wrong :P
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Mordinm » Tue May 19, 2009 7:27 pm

Avengeance wrote: normal taunts (except RD) shouldnt care what the boss is targetting, it only cares whos the top threat. That being said, if a ranged dps is 20% over the current aggro holder in threat, and you taunt, you don't actually get the threat of that ranged dps, because he has a 30% margin before he officially pulls aggro.



This doesn't make a lot of sense. Taunt either cares about top threat or it doesn't. And it doesn't. The target is what matters not who's at the top of the threat table.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby PsiVen » Wed May 20, 2009 2:48 am

There is a distinction between the 'tanking target' and the 'target'. Taunts confer the threat of the tanking target, even if the boss is currently targeting and throwing a lightning ball at a mage who is at 120% threat.

Typically it is true that an ability with a cast time will cause the mob to reevaluate its aggro target. This forces melee to be more careful, as they can pull with 101% threat instead of 110% if there's a spell cast. I don't believe Thorim actually pauses to cast Chain Lightning, so this doesn't happen in this case. Anyway, it's not relevant to taunting as the active threat target is not necessarily the current target. Patchwerk is a good example, he's always targeting the offtanks (or was, I don't remember if that was changed).
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Mordinm » Wed May 20, 2009 7:01 am

PsiVen wrote:There is a distinction between the 'tanking target' and the 'target'. Taunts confer the threat of the tanking target, even if the boss is currently targeting and throwing a lightning ball at a mage who is at 120% threat.

Typically it is true that an ability with a cast time will cause the mob to reevaluate its aggro target. This forces melee to be more careful, as they can pull with 101% threat instead of 110% if there's a spell cast. I don't believe Thorim actually pauses to cast Chain Lightning, so this doesn't happen in this case. Anyway, it's not relevant to taunting as the active threat target is not necessarily the current target. Patchwerk is a good example, he's always targeting the offtanks (or was, I don't remember if that was changed).


There's just one target. That's the guy who's name you see if you target the boss and have target of target activated. That's what taunt cares about. I double checked when we did Thorim last night and it's not the tank when he is casting Chain Lightning (which does have a 0.5 second cast time.) Bosses may fire off secondary abilities at other raid members without changing targets but again Thorim in particular does change targets and when he does the tank loses aggro in every meaningful sense of the word.

Do you have any evidence of a "tanking target." What makes you think there is one or what have you seen that leads you to believe that it exists and has anything at all to do with taunt mechanics?
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby PsiVen » Wed May 20, 2009 7:07 am

There are quite a few fights where you can test this. Brutallus comes to mind, as he very often casts Burn during a transition. If you use an RD macro you will incorrectly taunt his target, wasting your cooldown. If you instead cast RD on the other tank, it will taunt the boss. So no, in no meaningful sense does a target change indicate an aggro shift.

I don't know the exact mechanics for spellcasts recalculating the aggro target, but some bosses do it and some don't. Thorim doesn't. Kil'jaeden does. I would guess that Thorim doesn't actually stop autoattacking to cast Chain Lightning, which may be the difference (again with Brutallus, who changes targets while meleeing continuously). Lightning Charge resets his swing timer, but since it's an instant self-buff it shouldn't cause a recalc.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Mordinm » Wed May 20, 2009 1:01 pm

I would be very surprised to find that Thorim is attacking while using a spell with a cast time but given the horrible lag in Ulduar, normal server client latency and the lack of precision in the combat log time stamps I'd doubt you could prove it either way. I also tend to be a bit skeptical that you could show that hand of reckoning or taunt cast while Brutallus is targeting someone for burn gave you the tanks agro. Again latency, reaction time and the fact that burn is instant cast really mean you can't tell much of anything from that example. RD is a very different kind of taunt compared to Taunt, Growl, HoR or Dark Command because it explicitly assists the mob and casts the affect on a friendly target.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Aleph » Thu May 21, 2009 3:09 pm

Actually, I believe Mordinm is correct and this would explain my problem nicely. In fact, on Brutallus, I distinctly recall NOT taunting if he happened to be casting Burn for just this reason. The problem with Thorim on hard mode is that by charge 10, he's doing so much damage that if you don't get him off the unbalanced tank ASAP he's likely to get insta-killed especially with all the damage from Sif flying around.

Thanks for all the helpful responses, hopefully with the strike frequency change we'll have no more problems.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby PsiVen » Thu May 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Taunting during Burn was never a problem if you targeted the other tank for it.

Anyway, the more consistent UBS is something I'm not seeing. I can't tell if they changed anything, but he definitely wasn't using it right on the DBM cooldown in our 10-man. Was its cooldown lengthened also?
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Aleph » Thu May 21, 2009 5:28 pm

I don't think they made it perfectly consistent, they probably just increased the cooldown as you suspect. This sets a minimum bound on the frequency but no upper bound (though I guess for frequency that should actually be the other way around, but whatever). Even pre-patch we had times where he wouldn't use it for for a long time.
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Re: [10] Thorim hard mode - taunt oddness.

Postby Belloc » Fri May 22, 2009 9:21 am

I believe the cooldown on it now is about 15 seconds, which should guarantee no diminishing returns as long as tanks aren't taunting at inappropriate times.


As far as taunts and aggro go, I've always assumed that the taunt transfers the current target's threat, not the tank. Meaning, if the boss targets another player for an ability (especially an ability with a cast time), a taunt will attempt to transfer that target's threat instead of the current tank. I've never heard anyone disagree with this until this thread, so I'm still somewhat inclined to believe it the case.
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