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[10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Belloc » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:22 pm

Keladin wrote:Spent an entire friday nite wiping on 4 tower and never got it down. We had 3 1% wipes, several 2% wipes and most attempts we got him to under 10%.

We tried a couple different ways. The first was using only one chopper to tar when he could as well as pick up ppl during overload. We had one demolisher with a dedicated passenger and put 2 ppl into the other to be launched. This method gave both siege engines gunners that could shield as well as shoot down pyrite and burn tar. However our demolishers said they were basically getting owned by adds.

Our second method had 2 choppers, one was used to pick up ppl during overloads, the second was dedicated to dropping tar on adds (we noticed tar doesnt slow FL but does slow adds) and kite them through fire. The demolisher drivers said this really helped with adds but we still lacked the dps to get him down before everyone was dead.

Eventually we gave up and wanted to atleast get in the instance so we took out one tower and the fight was a joke. Its interesting how the level of difficulty changes.

We felt very defeated tbh, as one of the other top horde guilds got the achievement only a few hours earlier. It left everyone feeling as though we were missing something, that we were making the fight much harder then it needs to be. However judging by these other posts it really is very tighty tuned and seems like practice makes perfect, if I am missing something please let me know as this seems like the hardest 10 man achievemnt other them Mim.


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You're getting really close, so don't give up. Allow me to give a few pieces of advice that, hopefully, will get you where you need to be.

Your first strat is the strat we used to get the kill. 1 chopper, 1 2 person demo, 1 3 person demo. We only had one decent ranged dps (shaman), so he would always be the person getting launched. First time launched, he'd burn short cooldowns. Second time, he'd use heroism. Third time, I don't know, but more short cooldowns if anything. Anyway, the passenger in my demo would have to jump out to allow this player to jump in. Resulted in a few wipes, but always preventable.


Ok, so, advice time:

You need to better leverage your chopper. Your chopper should have two roles in this fight: 1) Picking up the turret killer and 2) tarring/kiting adds.

Our chopper driver spent the vast majority of the fight laying down tar in my corner (which my passenger would ignite) and attacking adds whenever they posed a danger to me (demo/siege passengers do not generate threat against adds, only the drivers can. If the driver does not hit them, a chopper can pull aggro with one attack). This way, he could kite the adds to the boss in the boss where they would be one-shot by pyrite splash.

This, of course, left the other demolisher somewhat vulnerable to adds, but they managed well enough. A really good chopper driver could alternate tarring corners, helping out both demo drivers. Adds stuck in tar = plenty of time for your passengers to kill them. Also keep in mind that your demolishers should be restricted to 2 corners of the room, assuming proper execution (upper and lower right).

If demo drivers perform well, adds are the only thing that can ruin the attempt. Have your chopper reserving tar for those corners and definitely have him getting aggro on the adds and kiting them to the boss.



Quick recap: Don't tar the boss -- tar in front of the add spawns in the upper and lower right. Kite adds if they get free of the tar area, especially if demolishers have moved away from their corner.

Oh, and one more thing. Turret killers, once they have completed their job, can hit the "exit vehicle" button and they will not be launched off the boss. They'll instantly appear on the ground, removing every bit of guesswork as to where that player will be located. This also allows that player to get to the demolisher on their own once the choppers have died (and only at that point, it's too risky to do at any other point in the fight). This just makes the chopper's job a bit easier.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Keladin » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:12 pm

Ty very much for the advice Belloc. In regards to the exit vechicle thing, one of our raiders asked about this and the turret ppl (we use shaman also) said there was no way to get off without being launched into the air......I figured that couldn't be the case but being a ret paladin means im not getting launched anytime soon.

When I got to work on monday I saw a post on the realm forums that the other guild I mentioned getting this done fairly easily actually cheezed this encounter pretty bad. I guess you can kite him through the forcefield and if you kite him long enough you can die, run back and kill him before he resets. Seems super lame to me.

1% wipes hurt real bad, but it means were progressing and i have confidence in this weekend.

Thanks again!


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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Threatco » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:11 pm

So do seige engines tank adds or does bike tar/kite them and passangers 0 threat dps them?

Are hodir beams 100% avoidable? If I am being chased and mimiron flame is dropping in my path and I have to curve to no run though it and then a hodir beam pretty much ganks me. Is there a way to position to always be safe?
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Kishandra » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:03 pm

Seige tanks can tank adds if they want to. They have almost 2 million hp compared to the 1 million hp demolishers that still survive until the end of the fight, so they can afford to lose a bit of hp on adds. Make good use of the battering ram ability (save charge and the interrupt one for flame vents/when you get chased). In 25man you can assign a siege engine to each corner where Freya adds spawn and it'll be fine.

Hodir beams are 100% avoidable. I was surprised that you could even backpeddle out of them without any speed boosts. If you're running into mimiron's flames dropping in your path, then you probably should've chosen a better path in the first place. The red beam that signals where the flames are being dropped does no damage and precedes the flames by a good 5-10 seconds, so you know exactly where the spots to avoid are. There isn't a specific position, but during the overload I like gradually backing up while refreshing the pyrite stack to give me a huge room to kite if he does target me.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:45 am

Spent five hours wiping on FL+4T (25) and then another three hours wiping on FL+4T (10) last night. It was pretty painful, but that 10 man achievement is one of only (really) three away from the meta, and I'd be pretty ticked if we gave up on FL only to have to wait til next week to get our server first rusted protos... especially on an encounter where class composition doesn't matter and we certainly have the gear.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Keladin » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:07 am

Again thanks for the tips guys, got this down in 25 man last night. I spoke with the ppl getting launched and they didnt think they could jump off during overload. 10 minutes later a guild got server first (legit) 10 man and posted the video, sure enough the mage jumps off during overload.

I guess you need to use /script VehicleExit(); and you have about a 3 second window to use it once you get the second turret down.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Belloc » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:03 am

Threatco wrote:So do seige engines tank adds or does bike tar/kite them and passangers 0 threat dps them?

Are hodir beams 100% avoidable? If I am being chased and mimiron flame is dropping in my path and I have to curve to no run though it and then a hodir beam pretty much ganks me. Is there a way to position to always be safe?


On 10 man, siege engines will spend the majority of the fight on the left half of the room. Siege passengers will spend the entirety of their time shooting down pyrite and killing adds that are anywhere near them. If done properly, adds on that side of the room will aggro onto the siege engines and the passengers will kill them.

The adds on the right half of the room, however, are bike tar/kited with demolisher passengers killing them.


And, yes, Hodir beams are 100% avoidable. If you get hit by them, you will almost certainly die before the fight is finished, which is a very bad thing for demos and siege engines. Watch the beams: If they are following you, stop and let them settle on you. They will fix to that position and that is when you move. If you spend the entire time running from Hodir beams, you'll just screw yourself up, so control them instead of them controlling you.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:11 am

It's also worth noting that if you keep moving when one stops on you, you'll get out in time. Just be sure you don't turn, slow down, or stop at all, or you'll probably get hit.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:36 am

Keladin wrote:Again thanks for the tips guys, got this down in 25 man last night. I spoke with the ppl getting launched and they didnt think they could jump off during overload. 10 minutes later a guild got server first (legit) 10 man and posted the video, sure enough the mage jumps off during overload.

I guess you need to use /script VehicleExit(); and you have about a 3 second window to use it once you get the second turret down.

This makes me wonder, and perhaps some of you that have done this before could also comment:

Why take any motorcycles at all then? Seems like (for 10 man) you could fire up two people onto him, have your shutdowns twice as fast, yet still maintain having a passenger in each Demolisher to pick up pyrite and such. That would mean not only more DPS during the shutdowns, but substantially easier kiting (since he clears his buffs when shut down, AND you can freely reposition). You wouldn't have tar for the adds, which is a minor annoyance, but I think the benefits would easily outweigh it. After all, you'd then only have four vehicles for the adds to go to, so they'd be easier to track as well. The main reason for the motorcycle at all is to pick people up, and if you don't have to do that, it seems like that person would be better used up on FL.

Another quick question: During wipes, I've been out of my vehicle and able to interrupt Flame Vents with HoJ. Can the people on top of FL interrupt it as well? If so, it wouldn't even be necessary for Siege Engines to be in melee, which would be a great increase to our survivability.

Also, I've noticed that I can taunt Flame Leviathan while outside my vehicle, but I haven't thought of a way to use that to any advantage.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Belloc » Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:08 pm

The problem with jumping off and running back is that it is dangerous. Demolishers are not supposed to be near the boss at all. Remember, the player has to run back at normal movement speed, which is considerably slower than the vehicles. I had a player attempt to run back to me last night and he died, presumably, from Flame Leviathan damage (FL's shutdown had run its course by this point).


I'm not saying that it wouldn't work (because it definitely could), but it would be risky. You'd either be risking player death from running back, or demolisher damage from FL being too close. Also, the adds would, once again, become the main threat to demolishers. You'd basically be racing against the add damage.

Alternatively, you could simply launch the 2-person demolisher passenger up and have the driver ration his pyrite (shoot every 7 seconds, instead of on GCD). If it takes 35-40 seconds for a single person to initiate a shutdown, it should take half that for two, meaning that player would have to ration pyrite for about 30 seconds (5 shots) before the passenger was returned to him by the bike. At this point, the bike could pick up the other passenger and deliver him, since the 3-person demolisher requires stricter timing to prevent stacks from falling off.


If you give either of those a shot, let us know. If it works well, I'll have my team try it :)
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:33 am

Regardless of interrupts, it's not really necessary to keep siege engines in melee. It's far important (in 10-man at least) for them to keep adds off the demolishers.

Using both demolishers to launch for shutdowns twice as fast sounds nice in theory, but in practice the more overload launches you have to do the more likely it is for something to slip up, someone dies outside the vehicle, a vehicle gets hit, a demo has to get too close to FL and gets chased, all of which lead to Pyrite stacks falling off. Plus, if you have solid DPS it doesn't take very long to overload at all.

We found it beneficial at times to have the overloading DPS wait until a demolisher gets targeted to use it. That combined with siege tanks not worrying about damaging the boss or interrupting every single cast got us the kill. It's still very RNG and not worth the loot on a weekly basis for our group, but every wipe due to bad luck is very close.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby itankforcash » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:48 am

25 man 4T is very very easy (Down 3rd try)

Adds are simply not an issue,

5 Siege Vehicles 4 corners of adds, put 1 in each corner with a chopper, the 5th siege focus on interupting.

1 of those choppers needs to pick a Turret passenger up with the 5th chopper @ overload (raid marks for the picking up choppers, shooting up demos and the actual Turret killers) we used a boomkin and a warlock, not ideal but worked fine.

That leaves the 5 demos, 2 are just focused on shooting the passengers up and spamming 1, the other 3 are the real "carriers" of the fight, they need to have a good passenger shooting down pyrite and ensuring that the driver has pyrite the whole fight to keep up 10 stacks, obviously the drivers need to go near the pyrite so the passenger can pick them up, and anything below 200k dps as a demolisher driver is fail (did 250k on kill).

Than with the obvious dont get hit by frost/lightning/flame tower you should have a nice easy kill. We had everyone alive at the end of the fight apart from the turret killers who died from fall damage bug at the end lolz.

10 is actually harder imo, adds are sometimes loose and demos getting chased can gimp the dps a bit, oh and we have a demolisher on full time nuke with me (the other demo) with 2 mages 1 getting shot up for each overload, than the other shooting down pyrite for me.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:30 am

We didn't get to try it last night because our 10 man didn't end up forming and our 25 man was missing key people so we just did one of the easier modes. I did manage to check on that interrupt, though, and it ends up that once you're on Flame Leviathan, he turns yellow (probably also to keep you from being shot by his rockets) and you can't interrupt or attack him. The macro to exit still worked, though.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby Donahu » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:25 am

Lots of good tricks I will be taking with me next week. Last week we spent too much time on four towers and just went down to a 1 shot with three.

The main issue we ran into was the ice blocks. No one mentions anywhere here that it encases you in ice. You can use a demolisher gunner or seige gunner to break them out (did not know this and had no way to counter it as far as we knew).

I have heard with the new nerf that you can even use the gunner of the vehicle that is encased in ice to one shot your way out now.

Can anyone confirm this so I can convince the group to try four towers again next week? Thanks.
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Re: [10/25] Flame Leviathan hard modes

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:37 am

Donahu wrote:Lots of good tricks I will be taking with me next week. Last week we spent too much time on four towers and just went down to a 1 shot with three.

The main issue we ran into was the ice blocks. No one mentions anywhere here that it encases you in ice. You can use a demolisher gunner or seige gunner to break them out (did not know this and had no way to counter it as far as we knew).

I have heard with the new nerf that you can even use the gunner of the vehicle that is encased in ice to one shot your way out now.

Can anyone confirm this so I can convince the group to try four towers again next week? Thanks.


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