Remove Advertisements

General Vezax: Mana issues

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, guillex

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Dem » Fri May 15, 2009 6:39 am

Some of the responses here are pretty disappointing. 'You think you're 1887', 'you're lazy', 'you're doing it wrong'.
There's usually more than one way to skin a cat and I haven't seen a sensible, thoughtful analysis yet of why we should change our strategy.

The only fair point so far is that it probably needs to be done differently in hard mode.

The main benefit I see to this approach, providing healers are coping (which they are) is the maintenance of threat building throughout the fight. Not hitting the boss for 15 seconds = less threat. If you kite him and aren't threat capping your dps, ever, then of course this isn’t a consideration for you.

If you are threat capping your dps then you are increasing the risk that you will fail because the encounter will last longer. The comment that you can take your time due to a long enrage timer misses the point. I want my dps to be ‘over-zealous’ as someone put it – I want to clear the encounter and get moving.
A longer encounter = more chances to run out of mana, miss an interrupt (a probable wipe), die i.e. lose healing, dps or the tank, have the boss healed thus extending the fight even further and so on.

Of course if you have a perfect raid group (we don’t) then your interrupts will always hit, your tank will have more threat than dps can ever match, no-one will cause the boss to be healed and mana management will never be an issue. In the real world it’s something that should be considered.

This is what I would balance against the risk of the tank dying due to staying in for Surge. There is certainly a risk here, but from experience it isn’t sufficient for me to change our approach.
One mitigation we have for this risk is a second tank, second on aggro ready to take over.

I’m not telling anyone how they should do it, unlike some other posters here. What we do works for us and I believe it’s efficient but as I said, every team is different.

I’m specced PoJ and have no problems kiting him if we decide to do it that way, but I remain to be convinced that it’s necessary or desirable at this stage.
Dem
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:39 am

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Seloei » Sun May 17, 2009 8:19 am

On this fight, casters who know what they are doing will be able to beat your threat, if you move or not. They gain almost double their spell damage and haste while standing in the black spot on the ground.
The only way you might be threat capping dps, is the melee or non-caster dps, and for that you most of the time don't need to worry about.

The main reason why we are against standing in to tank the surges is, as you put it, being lazy and or slow at knowing when you have to run away.
If you have melee interrupting, they can keep up with the boss while his under the effects of surge of darkness and you can turn around, smack AS and Exorcism while running which don't make up for your full rotation, but vengeance is ticking on him when he reaches you. You miss out on maybe ~ 10-15k threat due to the fact you are running to save the healers mana and not to get stomped if one external cooldown is "forgotten".

He does the surge of darkness almost spot on after 1 minutes. 9:00, 7:50, 6:40 etc. If you have a boss mod that shows you the enrage timer but doesn't show you the surge of darkness cooldown, you can just guess it by the enrage timer.

If you want to kill the boss with burning another 20% of the healers mana while staying in for surges, go ahead. It's your choice but if it works, it works.
Image
Seloei
 
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Estonia

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby inthedrops » Sun May 17, 2009 8:21 am

I'm guessing it would be a good idea to learn it via kiting for when your guild starts trying hard mode.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Kanthela » Mon May 25, 2009 2:31 am

Put a couple shots in on hard mode tonight (10 man), Using cooldowns to hold general in one place makes the last bit of the fight where the vapors become the animus more manageable. We didn't really have an outside CD to pop, so I was doing a rotation of bubble wall and kiting. I think it really doesn't matter if you kite or CD, it might make a slight difference to DPS, but the bottom line is healers can easily run out of mana long before the enrage timer is hit. However, in 10 man he hits like a small electric car so its a non-issue.

It the explicit use of CD's comes into play when the saronite animus spawns, either the animus tank has to move with the MT or the MT has to use CD's. The problem at this stage is that the animus has to be tanked on general as to avoid shadow crashes on melee. The shadow crash while the animus is active does increased damage and can easily kill someone with the addition of the consistent shadow DoT ticking on the raid. If you try to kite general at this stage you essentially begin to gamble with the success of the kill.
Image
User avatar
Kanthela
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 2:20 am

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Invisusira » Mon May 25, 2009 6:25 am

I'm not sure what the big deal about kiting this guys is. I AM A KEYBOARD TURNER and I kite him just fine. Just get yourself positioned almost sideways to him, and, as soon as you see him start casting, strafe out. You can still even still judge for a second and then exorcism and chuck shields at him as you run. Melee simply follows him and ranged keeps pew pewing.
As for mana problems, I have yet to have any in 10 or 25 man. My dual spec is one built specifically for mana conservation (including glyphs), take a look at it if you want.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-tale ... ra&group=2
User avatar
Invisusira
Moderator
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: alt-tabbed

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Nikachelle » Mon May 25, 2009 6:30 am

Invisusira wrote: I AM A KEYBOARD TURNER


:O

You're my hero.
User avatar
Nikachelle
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 10988
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:39 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Invisusira » Mon May 25, 2009 6:40 am

Nikachelle wrote:
Invisusira wrote: I AM A KEYBOARD TURNER


:O

You're my hero.

Puny Separatist Input Devices lack the number of buttons I require for the binding of keys. Right now my right hand controls 32 different keys, all of which can of course be effected by four modifier keys.
User avatar
Invisusira
Moderator
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: alt-tabbed

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Corpsicle » Mon May 25, 2009 1:35 pm

Invisusira wrote:I'm not sure what the big deal about kiting this guys is. I AM A KEYBOARD TURNER and I kite him just fine. Just get yourself positioned almost sideways to him, and, as soon as you see him start casting, strafe out. You can still even still judge for a second and then exorcism and chuck shields at him as you run. Melee simply follows him and ranged keeps pew pewing.
As for mana problems, I have yet to have any in 10 or 25 man. My dual spec is one built specifically for mana conservation (including glyphs), take a look at it if you want.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-tale ... ra&group=2


My ten man spent a lot of time trying to get this with the 'stand there and take it' with our DK tanking. The first night I tanked (dk out of town) and kited, we got him down as far on the first attempt as we ever had before. 3 tries later and we got it. Kiting made a big difference for us. I'd suggest that anyone looking at General for the first time try both kiting and standing there and taking it - then use the strategy that works best for your group.

As far as mana issues go, I tanked with 1/2 spiritual attunement in a typical 0/53/18 spec and had to drop consecrate a few times from my threat rotation. I did run low on mana at the very last 10% or so, but that was likely due more to my healers being low mana and healing me less than to my spec. I tanked in high avoidance gear and I had both kings and blessing of sanctuary. My recommendation is to try this with your normal spec, drop consecrate as you can afford to, and if you can't adjust to the lower mana environment then try a spec with some of the mana efficiency talents and 2/2 spiritual attunement.
Corpsicle
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Panzerdin » Mon May 25, 2009 1:51 pm

Invisusira wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
Invisusira wrote: I AM A KEYBOARD TURNER


:O

You're my hero.

Puny Separatist Input Devices lack the number of buttons I require for the binding of keys. Right now my right hand controls 32 different keys, all of which can of course be effected by four modifier keys.

I believe this is why you have two hands. I may be wrong.

Separatist devices can also be found with a large number of buttons.
User avatar
Panzerdin
 
Posts: 5504
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 pm
Location: On a picket line, protesting against the changes to Maintankadin

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Dantriges » Mon May 25, 2009 2:47 pm

I didn´t kite him. Could but I am happy to decrease the amount of stuff, the rest of the raid needs to be awre of. Makes us non pro? Ah well, it works.

Also some know it all from another guild meant, only dk´s can stand during surge, so that raised my interest.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon May 25, 2009 3:34 pm

Dantriges wrote:Also some know it all from another guild meant, only dk´s can stand during surge, so that raised my interest.


Surge CD meshes nicely with IBF CD, so DKs can tank without external CDs. Any tank with an external CD rotation can stand.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Seloei » Mon May 25, 2009 3:44 pm

DK's can stay in on every surge with IBF, but didn't it get nerfed to 35%, not 50% glyphed in 3.1.2?
Druids can probably stay in also 30% reduction every 1min.
Warriors with a glyph need an external
Paladins need an external

And you need atleast 4-5 external cooldowns to survive, your friendly dis priest can do 2-3 of those, not consecutive (2:40 cooldown) and 2 hands of sacrifice or divine sacrifice.
Image
Seloei
 
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Estonia

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Sober » Tue May 26, 2009 10:31 pm

I thought I read this on the forum somewhere, but did anyone mention standing on the edge of a Shadowcrash pool? That usually gets the threat going since you pretty much get almost all the buffs a caster would. I wouldn't say it is necessary (unless your DPS are really riding you); I did this in 10man and the occasional shadowcrash debuff would give me a substantial threat lead over some of the better dps in the guild.

That being said, you have to kite him, and you'd have to have a convenient pool instead of kiting into it for your convenience.
Sober
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 10:54 am

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Baelik » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:04 am

Well tried both Kiting and Burning CD strategies as a paladin.

However the Kiting strategy immediately strikes me as my favorite mainly because much like the debate between Avoidance and Mitigation I'd say no damage is better than healing through some damage. My 2 disc healers had less mana issues on this strategy.

Also for a Melee heavy progression group being able to run into a Shadow Crash zone for brief moments made a lot of difference to our DPS output.
Image
Baelik
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:33 pm

Re: General Vezax: Mana issues

Postby Joanadark » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:10 am

I've read several posters talk about how you should kite because youre going to have to kite for hard mode.

You DO NOT KITE IN HARD MODE.

You are not going to have the remotest chance in hell of killing the animus if you are dragging the boss all over the place. Not to mention both the animus and the boss have to remain stationary and basically inside each other's hitboxes at all times in order for your interruptors to be able to focus-kick General while DPSing the Animus.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

PreviousNext

Return to T8: Ulduar / Emalon

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest