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[10/25] Thorim's Arena

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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belarkan » Fri May 29, 2009 1:51 am

We had another go last night and indeed more dps in arena helped a lot.
When we first went, it was something like 50-50 between arena and gauntlet which didn't work. This time, gauntlet had 1 tank, 2 healers, 5 dps and arena could keep running for a while without much issue. Also <3 rogues and DKs.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belloc » Fri May 29, 2009 9:32 am

Tiandelin wrote:Some people mentioned using mind control on the warbringers to give the Aura of Celerity buff to the raid in 25-man. Last night, my guild tried this in 10-man (which is basically our playground for toying around with ideas before spending time working with them on heroic), but the priest complained that something kept interrupting him and he never had control of the mob for more than a few seconds.

From the logs, it seems like he was being pummeled by commoners just for standing near them while channeling MC, even though he didn't have aggro on any of them. Smart little bastards, those. I didn't even realize they interrupted. I guess this rules out the priest standing on top of the tank using this tactic anyway.

So what kind of positioning works for this strategy? Or is it just a waste of time? My guild still has occasional issues with arena wipes on Thorim in 25-man due to being overwhelmed, and I'm trying to figure out how to put a stop to that. No small task since I'm on perma-hallway duty and can't see what they're up to in there, but whatever. It does seem like a perma-bloodlust would help, though. And yes, we prioritize killing the special mobs first.


Mind-controlling the Warbringers will not work in phase 1 because of the interrupts. The warbringers are meant to be MC'd when it's time to kill Thorim. Don't bother during the add phase.

During the boss phase, there are two conal safe spots in the room, if you position Thorim precisely in the middle. The spots are between the boss and the very middle of his balcony, and between the boss and the very middle of the gauntlet gate. There are images of these spots up on the Elitistjerks thread.


Want easy-mode arena? Stick two rogues with imp. fan of knives (even just one point) in there and have them spamming it. Shouldn't see any casts getting off and things will die fast.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Zothor » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:19 am

I've noticed several of you refer to solo-tanking the arena

My guild has been stuck on Thorim for 3 good weeks now, and it's enormously frustrating - we're losing attendance any night people suspect we might do him because they're demotivated. We asked around, and two of the top guilds on my faction (we're not the most advanced PVE server, my guild actually ranks in the 3-5 range despite being stuck on thorim) solo-tank the arena in 25 man with a prot paladin. I've been informed I will be attempting this this week... trouble is, I've been in the arena maybe 3 attempts (I've been our gauntlet tank because I've seen it the most).

I asked around and was told to just keep con in the bronze circle at all times, but then do I not run around and pick things up before they get to the healers? I think I'm going to be getting some serious misdirects (we regularly run with 2 rogues and 2-3 hunters, and my guild overstacks strats enough that I may legitimately get all 5 misdirecting me), should I even be that worried?

I wanted advice from anyone who's tried it so I can be best prepared. What were your big issues solo-tanking it on 25?

Also, I was thinking about gear swaps - generally for big multitarget tanking I'd think block set. But for the aoe threat, I was seriously thinking about the 141 spellpower to consecration libram from naxx. Gonna lose a lot of block value though from the libram slot - is this a switch you guys would make?

I can't afford to be unprepared going into this... my guild is having serious attendance issues already, and another night of wiping on thorim is going to hurt us. Some of these guys do NOT remember what progressing through TK was like...
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Marwan » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:46 am

We basically throw all the melee in the arena, Rets are going nuts with Divine Storm, DKs are doing their thing, and Rogues are spamming Imp. FoK, we also bring a few hunters in there with tanking pets out with growl and thunderclap on. With MD and Tricks, you will have PLENTY of threat and most things will run straight to the circle.

Just pay attention to when Champions spawn and watch them, if they look like they're running for a healers instead of to the middle of the circle, throw a taunt or a shield.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Rhazi » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:13 am

Thorim was a long, grueling process to get it down. Your guild will become frustrated, but let's face it: this is progression. 10 man is easier of course. After your gauntlet team learns the run, then you can start tweaking the group composition. The goal is the give the gauntlet enough dps to make the run while the arena team is still alive. We had 1 tank (pally), 2 healers, and 3 dps in the arena. Send your caster dps to the gauntlet. The biggest problem the arena faces is healers gaining aggro. To help this, have your healers stand outside the edge of the center circle and tank there. When mobs come in behind them, they need to run into your concecration which should be up 99% of the time. Use exorcism, taunt, and magic frisbee to grab the elite mobs when you can. ALWAYS keep your excorism ready for new waves coming in. You don't want to be left having to choose between throwing down concecrate and taunting the champion that's bum rushing your healer while your top dps has grabbed the attention of warbringer. Another problem is going oom then things get hairy. Keep a mana pot handy as well as keeping divine plea up and running. Kill order for us has been healer, warbringer, champion. This isn't as important for 10 man as it is for 25, but it's good to get into practice. If things go smoothly, you should usually take down a wave before the next one comes in. If not, your dps sucks. Be sure to remind them of this. After the hard mode timer expires, your gauntlet team should be just about done if not already waiting to initiate phase 2. They should tell you when they are close so you know to burn CD's to hold out those last few seconds. When phase 2 starts, gauntlet tank taunts Thorim while EVERYONE mops up the rest of the arena mobs. Trade Thorim back and forth during his debuff and he's cake. 25 man is a slightly different story. I'll post my own thoughts on it when our guild gets the process down pat.

As far as gear goes...I have block and avoidance stacked and don't bother with parry. Block capped and unhittable, two healers have no trouble keeping me alive if I keep aggro off them. Use your concecration libram for threat. Oh, one more thing, don't stand in one place. Move in little circles around the center to keep mobs behind you and stay at max camera range so you can see new guys coming in.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Zothor » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:15 am

Rhazi wrote:As far as gear goes...I have block and avoidance stacked and don't bother with parry. Block capped and unhittable, two healers have no trouble keeping me alive if I keep aggro off them. Use your concecration libram for threat. Oh, one more thing, don't stand in one place. Move in little circles around the center to keep mobs behind you and stay at max camera range so you can see new guys coming in.


The reason I was thinking about stacking block gear is that with that many mobs being tanked at once, I didn't think you COULD maintain the block cap. The little bastards are probably going to rip through the charges of holy shield, right? Once it's down on the cooldown, you're hittable again.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Rhazi » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:01 am

Zothor wrote:
Rhazi wrote:As far as gear goes...I have block and avoidance stacked and don't bother with parry. Block capped and unhittable, two healers have no trouble keeping me alive if I keep aggro off them. Use your concecration libram for threat. Oh, one more thing, don't stand in one place. Move in little circles around the center to keep mobs behind you and stay at max camera range so you can see new guys coming in.


The reason I was thinking about stacking block gear is that with that many mobs being tanked at once, I didn't think you COULD maintain the block cap. The little bastards are probably going to rip through the charges of holy shield, right? Once it's down on the cooldown, you're hittable again.


Tanking 25 man is a little different, I was talking mostly about 10 man. I haven't tried solo tanking yet, but I could probably pull off dual tank. Champions have to be pulled out or they will slice up your squishies. You can try to solo it if you want, but I think your guild will soon see the need for multiple tanks in arena. Sounds like you guys have a dps problem if you can only afford one tank. Make sure you are constantly repositioning yourself to keep them off your back. If your healer(s) is worth anything and you keep aggro off them, you shouldn't have any problems until around the time the hard mode timer expires. At this time, the heat is on. Mobs spawn faster and you'll have more up. Save your cd's for this last stretch. When you're choosing your gear, keep in mind that on phase 2, you'll be trading off Thorim with your gauntlet tank, and if he gets a hit in on you during his debuff, you'll be wanting your avoidance. My gear is mostly Naxx 10 stuff, though Wall of Terror is there. I also have the helm from Freya and the mace from Thorim. Otherwise, my gear is mediocre compared to a lot of other raid tanks. AND I don't have a problem tanking arena as long as the gauntlet group is up to par.

I won't lie, this is a challenging scenario. Your experience will be of more benefit than your actual gear, it seems. If you are keeping aggro from your healers and your dps and still going down too soon, you might have to look at your healer to see if he's doing something wrong. Or maybe you need stronger dps to get the adds down faster. There are so many things that could go wrong with this fight, you have to be aware of all of them. Gauntlet team speed, arena dps and hps, tank's ability to control multiple adds continuously. Your team setup has to be solid or you will wipe until it is.

One last thing. The key for us in 25 man was kill order. Healers, Warbringers, Champions. Period. Healers will keep up adds longer while the Warbringers make them all stronger. Champions are killed afterwards, but make sure no more than two are up. Even with one tank dedicated to pulling out Champs, three overwhelmed our healers. If you are solo tanking, squishies can NOT be inside the center with the Champs. This will make it hard for them to run through your concecrate though...

The only way I can see solo tanking pulled of is if your guantlet team is at Thorim's back, ready to initiate Phase 2 as soon as the hard mode timer expires. If your gauntlet can't do that, tell them to fuck themselves and give you a support tank.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Zothor » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:27 pm

Figured I would report back after we tried this last night:

First off, we only took one attempt at it because it was the end out our raid time, but what we did worked really well. I solo tanked the arena (25) on the bronze circle, making it explicitly clear to my team that they were not getting taunted off of if their dumb asses ran outside of it.

Handling the champions was the responsibility of our arms warrior and rogue. dismantle/disarm them and the whirlwind doesn't happen, and they do no damage. Our DPS handled this excellently, letting everyone stay in Consecration.

I wore block gear, although I don't think it was neccessary, because I took little to no damage. Maybe that's because I had healers focused on me cause we had only one tank, but I just don't think it's necessary. Next time I'll wear max-stam for max spellpower for con. I did wear (and will continue to wear) the Con libram, felt like it helped a lot.

DPS was smooth with multiple aoe misdirects to me (one rogue, one hunter). This is the first time our DPS has been able to aoe in the arena without having aggro pull issues - only our massively overgeared warrior who has a nasty habit of spamming bladestorm and whirlwind managed to pull every so often. I used a holy paladin with Righteous Fury as bait, so I could taunt off of him when they bee-lined to him.

The only reason thorim didn't die is we've spent so much time wiping on phase 1, that half of our team had forgotten what they needed to do in phase 2 :P lost too many people to the chain lightning and didn't make the enrage timer. He dies tonight though. I HIGHLY reccomend one-tankadining the arena... it was a world of difference and my guild has been stuck on the arena for several nights of wipes trying more traditional strats.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belarkan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:31 am

Zothor wrote:I can't afford to be unprepared going into this... my guild is having serious attendance issues already, and another night of wiping on thorim is going to hurt us. Some of these guys do NOT remember what progressing through TK was like...


Sounds like you got issues with your dps within the arena like we had on our first tries.
How many dps do you have in the arena/gauntlet ?
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Zothor » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:43 am

Belarkan wrote:
Zothor wrote:I can't afford to be unprepared going into this... my guild is having serious attendance issues already, and another night of wiping on thorim is going to hurt us. Some of these guys do NOT remember what progressing through TK was like...


Sounds like you got issues with your dps within the arena like we had on our first tries.
How many dps do you have in the arena/gauntlet ?


The biggest issue we had in the arena wasn't damage - it was threat. We had been telling all of our DPS to single target down the big guys because our DPS isn't disciplined enough to aoe and not pull aggro and kept getting themselves killed. We had tons of problems witht his again last night, but they were at least mostly pulling aggro on the little guys. I made a policy of ignoring the little guys, hitting every champion with an exorcism, shield, or reckoning on the way in, and then dealing with them one by one, and we lost two people in the arena over 3 attempts (downed him third try). Pounding into everyone's head to stay in the circle of consecration also helped a ton.

We sent 5 DPS (our worst AOErs) into the gauntlet and had 9 in the arena. We run a DPS light comp of 7 healers + 4 tanks, mostly because we can - we have several absolutely outstanding DPSers that give us the luxury of having spares. We'll dualspec a tank to DPS for a lot of fights, but in general we don't bother for fight like this where spare tanks are useful.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belarkan » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:55 am

Well, rogues + trick of the trade are a must have. rogues can dodge, paladin can stun, plate wearers shouldn't care much about threat as they are wearing plate. Just taunt off on every cooldown if needed.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Rhazi » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:42 am

The only times I ever had trouble with aggro being pulled from me was from a DK single targeting the Champs, otherwise we AoE the crap out of the little circle and pretty much burn down the mobs before they can be pulled off of me. It's good to hear that single tanking works, I will have to recommend it to my guild next time so we don't have to sacrifice the dps. As long as you keep mobs from getting behind you, damage really isn't a problem until you get swarmed near the end of the first enrage timer. The other problem I've experience is having a priest in the arena. They are such a squishy class, they go down almost as soon as I realize they have aggro. If you send a priest into the arena, make sure they are situationally aware.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Zothor » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:54 pm

Rhazi wrote:The only times I ever had trouble with aggro being pulled from me was from a DK single targeting the Champs, otherwise we AoE the crap out of the little circle and pretty much burn down the mobs before they can be pulled off of me. It's good to hear that single tanking works, I will have to recommend it to my guild next time so we don't have to sacrifice the dps. As long as you keep mobs from getting behind you, damage really isn't a problem until you get swarmed near the end of the first enrage timer. The other problem I've experience is having a priest in the arena. They are such a squishy class, they go down almost as soon as I realize they have aggro. If you send a priest into the arena, make sure they are situationally aware.


honestly, I blatantly ignored the mobs getting behind me. I tried to circlestrafe to keep them in front, but if the champion was coming from the other side and exorcism wasn't available, I jsut ran through the pack. they simply don't hit hard enough in my gear (admittedly around an average item level of 219ish) to be a concern, aggro was way mroe important.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby amh » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:02 pm

For those who haven't noticed: The Aura of Celerity (which you get when you MC the Warbringers) is raid-wide.. and it stacks. 40% permanent haste (we took two of them) is lol. Unfortunately this also means that it stacks for the npcs whilst fighting you in the arena, so you may want to burst them down rather quick if you ever get two at the same time.
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Druski » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:32 am

I do not know if this has been mentioned or not. forgive me for not sifting through 6 pages of posts, so at worst im being redundant, at best, helpful.

our setup is simple: ranged dps in gauntlet, melee dps in the arena. tanks in the arena are 3: DK,warr,pally(myself). the DK is optional, really can be any tank but we prefer having the 3 tanks total up there. mobs are tanked in the middle, healers split to either left or right stacked on each other and moving as necessary

the strategy thus- the DPS focus targets on whatever the DK is tanking (prioritizing the champs/casters). we single target everything down with the occasional call for aoe. the warr/pally are focused on control. the key is vigilance http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50720. the warrior puts vigilance on the pally, the pally grabs aggro on everything (not sticking to any one target. spreading out hammer/shield bounce as much as possible to all new targets, though shield is usually put on the casters to silence them and bring them in). the more the better as with vigilance, every time I am attacked, i reset the warrior's taunt cooldown. he literally has infinate taunts...and uses them.

dps is allowed to go all out because the DK (or whomever is your single target tank) is focusing on one mob at a time. he's not stressed about controling the rest. if the warriors health dips low, i use RD on him to grab a chunk of mobs, my hp is never in danger as the big mobs are either taunted off me by the DK (to kill) or the warrior (to control) so focusing on threat is nice here. 2pc Tier-7 is helpful, and though i dont use it, the hammer +1 target glyph would be nice as well.

we went from this being a wipe-fest progression boss to a one-shot the very next week. in fact, we had so much control in the arena that during the one-shot, our tank in the gauntlet died, was rezed, rebuffed and re-engaged, costing a LOT of time. yet the arena never once was behind. with this setup giving the warrior so many taunts gives the necessary control, all you need at that point is the dps to capitilize on it. works for us.
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