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[10/25] Thorim's Arena

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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Jasari » Tue May 19, 2009 12:01 pm

Strom wrote:I am unsure if this is the best thread for the question, but here goes:

I am wondering if I overshoot the hit table enough with Holy Shield if I can effectively still remain uncrittable after an unbalancing strike? I know we have a guantlet tank who could easily switch with me, but I am more fearful of our healers reacting fast enough on the tank switch. At any rate, it seems like the loss of avoidance/block rating with the - 200 defense debuff could be easily overcome with holy shield and extra avoidance/block rating stacking for the debuff.


It's theoretically possible, but not ideal. As you said, you have a 2nd tank anyway, you might as well use him. If healers are so incompetent that they don't know how to deal with a tank swap, they should be gkicked immediately.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Strom » Tue May 19, 2009 12:33 pm

We will try it the normal way of course, but its always nice to have options when issues arise.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Funtodin » Tue May 19, 2009 2:10 pm

Mozen wrote:1. Paladin AOE tank the whole thing. Second tank single-pull Champions out.
2. All DPS focus fire champion down, then turn around and AOE.
3. Melee will assist-target me, and I will focus my single-target threat on the Warbringers, then Evokers.
- Consecration and HotR will be enough to hold threat against the mages if they do focus fire the Champions first
- Melee incidental AOE (my consecration, DK's death and decay, ret divine storm etc) will be enough to kill the commoners
4. Profit?


1 => 2 => Have the rogue spec for improved throwing and just spam fan of knives => profit.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Mozen » Thu May 21, 2009 2:08 am

We tried Thorim again last night. Focused down the Champions then AOE. Although one or two of the AOE classes still weren't finding the Champions (unless we mark them, they can't find Champions, I don't understand why), one rogue also went and spec improved throwing. We did last a bit longer, still we get overwhelmed, although we do last until when the hard-mode timer is up.

I tried suggesting everyone focusing on a single target, and letting the Commoners die to incidental AOE, but got turned down by the whole raid. Has anyone had success with the "all focus fire and ignore Commoners" tactic?
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Bastien » Thu May 21, 2009 11:15 am

Arianne wrote:How are you guys doing this in 10 man?

I was in there as the arena tank with a mage/warlock/hunter and priest/druid healer. We sent the other tank and 2 dps and 1 healer into the gauntlet. The first wave we did fine, but after that we'd slowly fall behind and then the mage/warlock would die due to having adds on them. I was tanking in the middle because the one time we tried tanking on one side we got insta-killed by the lightning pillar there being activated (like without time to run away from it). It'd just come to a period of time when I had like 10 stacks of the damage reducing debuff (low blow) and not enough tools to grab mobs from 360 degrees around me.

We also had lots of problems with him throwing his hammer and silencing one person (usually a healer) and slowing down everyone else. I don't really see how you can do this on 10 man with one tank in the arena. What am I missing?


We do this with one tank in the arena (me). Basically it's an all out frenzy for me using every AoE threat ability I have. 969 is basically out the door at this point. Me and melee dps stack in the center. Healers and ranged dps stand just outside the circle on the floor (and thus out of the mob pool). If anyone gets an add they can't handle (or I don't get off them right away), call it out on vent, and hopefully HoReckoning or Avenger's Shield is up to pull the mob off.

We're trying for hard mode, so it's AoE threat/dps/heals in the arena until Thorim jumps down.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Notorius101 » Thu May 21, 2009 4:48 pm

[25] The strat we use for Thorim is:
8 in the gauntlet - Mage x4, Warlock, Holy Pally x2, Druid Tank
17 in the Arena - 5 healers 2 tanks 10 remaining dps

Arena
3 Fan of Knives for 100% lock down and rotation of Tricks on myself for maximum AoE Threat
2nd arena Tank taunts off Champions full focus dps on them hunters are dropping explosive trap every time its up, death and decay, whirlwind, consecrates, divine storm, basically makes it so you never have to worry about commoners and evokers at all, and never have more then 1 champion up at a time, also since the rogues are casting fan of knives every 2-3 seconds there are 0 casts getting off from any of the adds, basically makes the arena a joke. Also have one holy pally Righteous Fury so i can spam Righteous Defense on him for new adds incoming.

Gauntlet
Sheeps right 2 adds burn down others focus on acolyte counterspell rotation when hes going to heal same with next group then pulls miniboss stack up behind him so he cant charge at all and only tank gets hit with smash. Warlock Mark 4 adds through the wall for each mage, as soon as 1st boss is down each mage sheeps their target the tank pulls 2nd miniboss, focusing on acolytes as they spawn, once the 2nd miniboss dies 1 of the healing pallies from the gauntlet runs down to activate thorim and the remaining 7 in gauntlet kill the sheeped adds then after they are all dead they join us in the arena to kill thorim.

This strat of course will be changed for hard mode
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Xfighter » Thu May 21, 2009 5:09 pm

I've found that in the arena on 10-man, that having at least one mail\plate DPS or healing class in with you, so they have a higher chance of agroing mobs, and higher chance of surviving a few hits.

If it's a ret pally, cons\divine storm seem to be enough to keep mobs on me/him.

Holy pally just heals with RF on, I taunt off them every chance.

DK just drops DnD\etc, and possibly in frost presence.

Shammy's just agro and able to survive 1-2 hits, whereas clothies wouldn't be able to consistently.

etc

Worked for me every time so far.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby PsiVen » Fri May 22, 2009 3:10 am

If you're using 2 tanks (hardmode for example), you'll only have one real tank in the arena and the DPS there will take a lot of incidental damage as a result. So the best healers will be priests and druids because they can actually heal with that stupid casting speed debuff. If the DPS go all out, the healers will never have aggro because the constant AoE will pull the mobs towards the tank.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Sober » Sat May 23, 2009 11:55 pm

In 10-man, we got the intended result where it was possible to have lulls in the arena (aka mobs dying fast).

In 25-man, we placed melee in the arena and let the casters take the gauntlet. Our problem was - gauntlet: melee splash pulls aggro from our gauntlet tank, and arena: casters eating poop from whirlwinds and cannot aoe without stopping single-target casts. So melee was put in the arena so we could splash the commoners down in a convenient manner (some healers kept getting spell locked from the commoners).

Myself and a prot warrior handled the arena. In a fit of hilarity, we killed him with me tanking the arena at > 5 fps. If you happen to have low fps, just make macros to target the Champions/Warbringers/Evokers and mark them that way; it's already bad enough with nameplates moving everywhere from Commoner swarms. Our prot warrior would grab all the Champions and try to drag them a bit off to the side to be killed first, while Evokers were second. The abundance of melee should help with interrupts. Warbringers died mostly from splash/no Champs/Evokers to kill.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belarkan » Sun May 24, 2009 3:07 pm

I just don't get how you got the arena on 25.
Mobs just pops as soon as they die, so if you choose to focus one type, you'll get overwhelmed by the others, don't you ?

Edit:
I just watched the videos from tankspot. Omg, either they have tons of DPS and play the video slowly, either we had something wrong about the add pop speed.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Kellel » Mon May 25, 2009 10:54 am

one little tip for you pally tanks stuck in the arena for 10 man .. we struggled with this fight the other night for a few hours. Priest and Holy pally were healing the arena with a bunch of dps. I was starting to feel like a noob tank cause everyone was peeling mobs left and right. I whispered a few of them and gave them a few suggestions on how to prevent it .... after a couple hours .. we were down to one problem left in the arena ... priest kept going splat. I found that while tanking all those mobs ... she would constantly pull aggro. I was burning all my cool downs trying to keep her alive .. meanwhile our other raiders were paying the price. It was getting rather frustrating ... so I started looking through the numbers. lol, according to recount our priest was overhealing more than the holy paladin!! she was at nearly 40% overheals! we learned the hard way that she is an aoe heal spammer.

Anyway, after I came across that, I suggested they switched the priest with the resto shammy that was in the tunnel group. Next attempt, arena stayed alive ... but the tunnel group wiped. The attempt after that we got thorim down ... and killed him :D.

Moral of the story is .. arena group has to very careful about peeling mobs. Everyone needs to keep their aggro wipe's handy to give the tank a hand. Healers need to heal just enough to keep people alive .... aoe dps needs to give the tank a few seconds before they start raining the pain.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby PsiVen » Mon May 25, 2009 2:25 pm

No offense, but it's not the priest's fault you couldn't keep mobs off her. AoE heal spam is the way to go in the arena, and 40% overheal is quite typical. I suspect the issue was really positioning: All of the DPS should be dead center, with the healers at the edge of the bronze circle. Your consecration will cover that whole area, and in isolation it should be clear when mobs are heading for healers.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Doxa » Tue May 26, 2009 8:50 am

We've completely road-blocked on Thorim and have never even finished P1. I completely hate this fight.

We've got most of our dps centered in the middle with healers just on the outside of the rings. 3 tanks in the middle with 4-5 healers and what feels like most of the dps (I can't recall exactly how many now).

The biggest issue we have is that the arena simply gets completely overrun by the 2 minute mark (about the same time they finish the first mini-boss). Our gauntlet team is hitting the first mini-boss around 1.25 minutes.

We've got two prot paladins in the arena doing adds while a DK tank pulls out the champion and they are burnt down first. We've been ignoring the Warbringers and Evokers and letting them die in the aoe as we haven't been even getting the champions down before the next one spawns.

I'm still convinced the issue is a dps problem in the arena. I wish I could say which folks are in the arena but it simply changed a few times and my head was hurting by the end of the night.

http://wowwebstats.com/3pzuho2bq4g4s

EDIT: I think I found the issue. Dark Rune Evokers are averaging 1.5 MILLION in healing.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Sober » Tue May 26, 2009 10:35 pm

You definately want to burn down the Evokers. You want someone (preferably an Enh shammy) to purge the shields and the HoT, and more melee to kick the heals. I haven't had a serious problem with people in the arena peeling adds off (except rogues, and they can still take a hit or two).
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Tiandelin » Wed May 27, 2009 10:35 am

Some people mentioned using mind control on the warbringers to give the Aura of Celerity buff to the raid in 25-man. Last night, my guild tried this in 10-man (which is basically our playground for toying around with ideas before spending time working with them on heroic), but the priest complained that something kept interrupting him and he never had control of the mob for more than a few seconds.

From the logs, it seems like he was being pummeled by commoners just for standing near them while channeling MC, even though he didn't have aggro on any of them. Smart little bastards, those. I didn't even realize they interrupted. I guess this rules out the priest standing on top of the tank using this tactic anyway.

So what kind of positioning works for this strategy? Or is it just a waste of time? My guild still has occasional issues with arena wipes on Thorim in 25-man due to being overwhelmed, and I'm trying to figure out how to put a stop to that. No small task since I'm on perma-hallway duty and can't see what they're up to in there, but whatever. It does seem like a perma-bloodlust would help, though. And yes, we prioritize killing the special mobs first.
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