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[10/25] Thorim's Arena

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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Wibu » Wed May 06, 2009 5:00 pm

Blar wrote:What is the best kill order for the adds in the arena? Do you split up the dps or focus fire one mob at a time to the next?

When I'm tanking I focus on keeping the aggro of Champions and Warbringers, I let the dps "tank" the Evokers. As for kill order, we sort of have a hybrid system. All the DPS focus on Champions, burst it down single target. 2 Rogues go to town on Evokers when they pop up, Warbringers seem to die eventually from residual AoE (DKs/Palas) and off dps when there's nothing else left.

I'd recommend having as many DKs in the Arena as possible. I can't say how much of a blessing they really are, especially if you're solo tanking it (we've done hard mode using 2 tanks to maximise DPS, 1 in Arena, 1 in Gauntlet. Solo tanking Arena is not fun *brainsplodes*). DKs just do a crap load of DPS in Arena, even while focusing on single target dps, plate is also a bonus.

Blar wrote:Can the 20% haste aura be provided to the raid if the warbringers are mind controlled?

It applies to the group the mind controlling priest is in. For the hard mode we used 1 MC in the melee group (2 rogues, a warrior and a DK with an SPriest mind controlling). The mind controlled mob does *a lot* of DPS. However, for a normal kill it is not needed.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby fiorina » Wed May 06, 2009 9:53 pm

Seloei wrote:Im guessing fiorina is refering to 10 man thorim.


No, he is referring to 25. But again, why you ask about arena... It's like the easiest thing to figure out. Put 1 DPSer there... it doesn't work. Put 2 next try, still doesn't work? Ok, Put 3 there, still nothing?
Put 4 and let tank DPS ---> working for your raid composition ---> win.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby callimar » Thu May 07, 2009 11:29 pm

Well apparently I am in a sort of fail group because for the life of us we are failing miserably at the arena.

Positioning: all casters clustered on the side of the circle away from thorim
tank 1 (me): closest to thorim on the edge of the circle. It appears when the adds spawn they target the person closest to thorim not sure if it is SUPPOSED to work this way but it did it every time we pull so.. ya... they would all come to me no matter what was going on. Unless a smart dpser aoe'd them on the way in >.>
tank 2 DK: near me on the edge of the circle DG/Taunting champions out.

DPS: 1DK, 1RET, 1 ENHSham, 1 Rogue, 3Mages, 2 Locks. Normally we would have an extra rogue and dps war in there but they didnt log on

Issues: Mass death, usually overwhelmed w/in 3 min. I was consistently in the top 4 for damage done... not every attempt but many of them when I did this I was around... 3300-3500 dps? Generally the top dps was our ret pally or dpsDK running around 5k dps.

What we tried: tried shammy/rogue/1 mage on evoker everyone else on champions, and when your focus tgt is down aoe hard. /fail :evil:
-full focus on champions then evokers, then warbringers, fail :evil:
-full focus on evokers, champions warbringers, /fail :evil:
-sheep evoker, focus champions warbringers, /fail :evil:

Normally I like to figure stuff out myself, and encourage my raid to brainstorm too. But after 3, four hour raids of wiping on this boss I am sort of at my wits end. If you need to know more about how we are doing this before you can make some educated answers lemme know but I think most that read this are familiar enough with the fight to get what I've written. I just don't understand why we fail at this so hard. No boss has taken more than 6 or 7 tries to this point...
I would link a wowmeter but its not up on our site yet I will try and add that later. http://www.wowmeteronline.com//combat/log/653441 Not sure how reliable this is since the guy that took the meter was in the tunnel.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby fiorina » Sat May 09, 2009 12:03 am

Your DPS is way too low. During AoE part (arena), I am hitting 5,5k DPS as retri with no U25 gear, rogues are on 6k+, Deathknights close to 8k.

Those mobs should basically vanish after you jump them. Example of mob presence:
http://wowwebstats.com/piwc6fqczcxfu?s= ... 32bca#inst
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Joanadark » Sat May 09, 2009 3:14 am

If youre doing it right, your actually supposed to have dead space in between stuff jumping down where there is literally nothing left to kill.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby callimar » Sun May 10, 2009 2:27 pm

Ya I went back and looked at my recount before I cleared it and our DPS in the arena was ranging from 5k on our ret pally to 3k on one of our "outstanding" mages. The wowmeter parse did not correctly collect damage from the arena. I did have a question on targeting. Since our DK (champion tank) seems to have issues generating enough threat to hold from our ret pally and DPSDK would it make sense (in our case) to switch the targets?

What I mean is having the melee onto of me would allow them to crush Evokers and even if they pull agro on a war bringer not get spanked. Then taking all the range dps and have them nuke the champion. This would give the DK more room on agro and decrease the likelihood of someone other than the tank getting whirl winded. Essentially everyone but the champion tank would be standing in 1 spot.

Thanks for the help

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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Palabrewtis » Tue May 12, 2009 8:46 am

I have to say, we've had nothing but trouble with the arena on 25 man. 10 Man is a joke compared to this. We've tried positioning every which way only to fail each time. I keep saying it's a dps problem, but I feel like people don't want to admit it.

Here is our report.
http://wowwebstats.com/uxrtjbzbpqopi?s=593287-625893

I've been tanking all the mobs I can in the middle, the dk tank was pulling out champions because the dps couldn't kill them before they wirlwinded people to death. We had 3 dps killing champions when they came out and everyone else was on evokers/warbringers. Stuff just doesn't die.

I guess what I'm asking is, are we wasting our time with this kind of DPS or do we need to change up our strategy?
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby fiorina » Fri May 15, 2009 9:02 pm

Looks like DPS/Control issue to me.

Some of champions lived for 2 minutes???!!? Are you razorgore-round-kiting them?

Those mobs should live 20-30 seconds max. Also, their outgoing damage is huge. You can stun them, disarm, DG, incapacitate, typhoon, knock back.. heck cyclone even, alright, not cyclone.

Is there anything preventing you to DPS them harder? Are you threat capped? Maybe move more DPS to arena. Basically noone in arena should go below 5-6k DPS. Put some strong AoE classes there. DK, retri pala etc.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Palabrewtis » Sat May 16, 2009 8:33 pm

We started bringing everything into the center and focusing on champions again. It worked a lot better, we also had a lot of better dpsers too.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Mozen » Mon May 18, 2009 11:01 am

Did 10-man Thorim in the morning, 25-man Thorim in the evening, and 10-man is a joke with the group sitting around waiting for adds in the arena. 25-man...I guess our dps were fail. We basically get overrun 30 seconds into the fight. Yes, 30 seconds after the first add appear in the arena.

It felt like we only had four or five GCDs before the commoners started rushing in.

Our healer complains that standing in the center makes him more likely to get hit by something that reduces 75% casting speed. So he insists on standing close to one of the pillars. I can't find this skill anywhere. Anyone has pointers? He even specifically said his Flash of Light was slowed to 2.3-2.4 seconds per cast.

Our RL puts most melee into the passage team, leaving only hunters, mages and warlocks in the arena. From the discussion above, this is actually the worst composition? We were working with a 15-man passage team, 10-man arena team (two tanks, didn't count the healers).

I'm having trouble holding on to anything at all in the 25-man arena. Probably due to dps not focus firing (yes I noticed the Champions living longer than some of our raid members).

So a summary from above discussions:

1. Ret, DK, Warriors and Rogues are gods in the arena
2. Focus Champions > Focus Warbringers > Focus Evokers > AOE Commoners
3. Stacking the whole arena team in the center also works, but spreading out is also good
4. Disarm works wonders against the Champions
5. Improved Fan of Knives works wonders against the Evokers

A few questions...

1. Is more dps required in the passage or the arena? Or is it fine to roughly dividing the raid's dps (in terms of total output, not in terms of number of players) in half?

2. So arena is more about focus firing, less about AOE? Or is it actually better to focus down the Champions then just mindlessly AOE the rest?

3. What is that -75% casting speed debuff?
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Belloc » Mon May 18, 2009 11:47 am

Whenever Thorim throws his hammer into the arena, anyone within a certain range of the target gets a cast speed slow. If everyone is stacked up, everyone gets the debuff. Your healer was right on.

Disarm/dismantle the champions. Use controlled AOE on everything (as in, AOE once new mobs are picked up).

We put 1 tank, 2-3 healers, and 6-7 ranged DPS in the gauntlet. We usually have less than a minute left when we reach Thorim, which is fine for our group.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby inthedrops » Mon May 18, 2009 1:03 pm

Mozen wrote:1. Ret, DK, Warriors and Rogues are gods in the arena
2. Focus Champions, Ignore Commoners.
3. Everyone but healing stacks in the center
4. Disarm works wonders against the Champions
5. Improved Fan of Knives works wonders against EVERYTHING including TotT on tanks


Updated and simplified.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Funtodin » Tue May 19, 2009 8:50 am

In the first time we killed him, we put 2 rogues with AoE interrupt on fan of knives and the fight went from chaos to 1 shot just like that, even having one of our tanks in the arena going dps. We have one warrior taunting the champions to the left of the circle and I solo tank the rest without much trouble as long as the rogues have throwing specialization.
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Mozen » Tue May 19, 2009 11:10 am

Belloc wrote:We put 1 tank, 2-3 healers, and 6-7 ranged DPS in the gauntlet. We usually have less than a minute left when we reach Thorim, which is fine for our group.


1+3+7=11, meaning you have 14 in the arena, say 2 tanks, 4 healers, 8 DPS. That's about the same as us. How do your arena team hold out? Do they sit around chilling, or are they almost always on the verge of getting overwhelmed by the time you activate Thorim?

You said less than a minute left, is that on the enrage timer? Or 1min to the end of hard mode?

We banged our heads against the Arena again today. This time we held out longer, but we still always get overwhelmed. Each time I go down, there are always two or three Evokers/Champions/Warbringers, and several Commoners. It's always just before the passage team have a chance to initiate the second mini-boss in the passage.

Arena group composition and our damage output until the wipe in our last try: (stats reset after the initial mobs were cleared)
Healers: Druid, Priest, Shaman, Shaman.
Tanks: Druid, Paladin(me)
0. Class, total damage (dps)
1. Rogue 1,424k (7489)
2. Cat druid 1,171k (6941)
3. Rogue 853k (4918)
4. DK 822k (3887)
5. Ret 797k (4159)
6. Tankadin (me) 722k (3416)
7. Mage 685k (4694)
8. Bear tank 646k (3845)
9. Mage 579k (4337)

Our raid leader insists that we should only focus fire the Champions, and AOE the rest. The mages claim the casting speed debuff is responsible for their low damage output. I also have difficulty establishing good threat against both the mage AOEs and the rogue single target output. I equip my Consecration libram for this fight.

Finally, I think I'm starting to understand something (duh).

1. Paladin AOE tank the whole thing. Second tank single-pull Champions out.
2. All DPS focus fire champion down, then turn around and AOE.
3. Melee will assist-target me, and I will focus my single-target threat on the Warbringers, then Evokers.
- Consecration and HotR will be enough to hold threat against the mages if they do focus fire the Champions first
- Melee incidental AOE (my consecration, DK's death and decay, ret divine storm etc) will be enough to kill the commoners
4. Profit?
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Re: [10/25] Thorim's Arena

Postby Strom » Tue May 19, 2009 11:56 am

I am unsure if this is the best thread for the question, but here goes:

I am wondering if I overshoot the hit table enough with Holy Shield if I can effectively still remain uncrittable after an unbalancing strike? I know we have a guantlet tank who could easily switch with me, but I am more fearful of our healers reacting fast enough on the tank switch. At any rate, it seems like the loss of avoidance/block rating with the - 200 defense debuff could be easily overcome with holy shield and extra avoidance/block rating stacking for the debuff.
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