[10/25] Yogg Saron

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Re: Yogg Saron

Postby kram » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:59 pm

Seloei wrote:But... do you have all ranged burn the biggest add, and the melee break the grabbers and then kill the cursers? With 9 melee + 1 healer going into the portal as soon as its up, even if theres adds from p1?
Our main reason of failure is one word : Chaos. Noone knows what the hell they are supposed to do.


you shouldn't have adds from p1 up til portals come. 2 crushers spawn before the portals appear

Also you should only have 2-3 adds up going from p1->p2, melee deal with the left over adds/constrictors, ranged on crushers, if melee have extra time before portals they can go take out one corrupter usually.

The fight is pretty easy theres just a few things to learn each phase
p1 getting to p2 as quick as possible. miss one add and youre probably going to have too much dps to catch up on going to p2.
p2 getting the most dps on the correct targets and getting tentacles stunned uptop asap
p3 keeping tanks alive while dpsing boss.

you can go for pretty long in p3 even if it looks like a wipe, a lust can prolong a wipe for a good 5%+ to yogg.
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Re: Yogg Saron

Postby Karnah » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Barsine wrote:Wowwiki says that there's a 5min enrage timer in phase 3, but I'm almost certain we spend more than 5 min in that phase on the kill so.


It may be different in 10 man, but when we killed Yogg in 25 man we seemed to be able to circle it to 7 mins. I had 2 wings on and another one was just about to cool down when we killed him. The attempt before that, when people died to sanity loss, i had 3 wings up but wasnt able to pop a fourth.

I was retri for the kill by the way!

I feel its a very very impressive boss that I was quite happy with. The only thing i think is that he should have had a bit of RP associated with his death. I dont yet want to imagine playing him on hard mode. :) Next week we will be grabbing at any hard modes we can get.
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Re: Yogg Saron

Postby baleogthefierce » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:35 am

Seloei wrote:Tanking crushers might work on 10 man, but in 25 man with 99 stacks they hit for 40-45k EACH swing every 1s with mimirons aura up. So they are basicly untankable.

Does anyone have any idea how to handle the stacking raid damage debuff in 25 man, since it is impossible to tank those?
We decided that if there is a second spawn a tank will go and swing at it so he doesnt cast a second -20% aura and stops hitting every once in a while.


You can dance in and out when the stacks get too high, or have DPS switch to AOE temporarily to give you a breather. The stack falls off in fairly short order if no direct damage is being applied to the crushers.
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Re: Yogg Saron

Postby Aubade » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:32 pm

For p1, we didn't even bring 2 tanks, I solo tanked the fight, it was pretty damn easy.

P1, I picked up all the adds, all melle was in the middle with me (healed through the explosion), we spawned the inside cloud every time.

Phase 2, I "tanked" crusher tentacles, had 2 melle and a hunter go downstairs,

Phase 3, I picked up all the Adds, Ranged on adds, Mellee on boss, got him down in about 3 and a half minutes with Heroism

There was really no need for a 2nd tank.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby PsiVen » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:18 am

Phase 3 (25-man) definitely has a tight enrage timer, probably 5 minutes. We wiped to it several times before we got the kill, and yes, it is a HARD enrage (he spams an ability that one-shots the raid). You need 2 tanks here as each full HP add hits for ~27k (decreasing as they die).

10-man indeed is much easier as a DPS check and doable with one tank, I think you'd still want 2 tanks attempting any hard modes though, especially 0-keeper.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby kram » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:57 am

PsiVen wrote:Phase 3 (25-man) definitely has a tight enrage timer, probably 5 minutes. We wiped to it several times before we got the kill, and yes, it is a HARD enrage (he spams an ability that one-shots the raid). You need 2 tanks here as each full HP add hits for ~27k (decreasing as they die).

10-man indeed is much easier as a DPS check and doable with one tank, I think you'd still want 2 tanks attempting any hard modes though, especially 0-keeper.


bigwigs has a 15 min enrage timer listed for yogg, im not sure how correct this is but I know we have gone much longer then 5min in p3 25man.

10man hard modes I think you can manage with one tank. you would probably need the dps to get the boss down, i think you end up losing some aoe dps on yogg from melee if you do 0 keepers.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Ziv » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:07 pm

Some 10m advice:

P1: I find it very unnecessary to pop additional Guardians; it'll most likely happen anyway and having popped more intentionally before hand will just cause a wipe. I tanked in the center with a caster heavy group (two melee) and just exorcism/taunted new Guardians to myself.

P2: Tank the Crushers and burn them down; top priority next too Constrictors (people who are constricted can instant cast on the Constrictor.) Had two melee DPS killing all of the Corruptors and found it more than sufficient. Have pre-assigned portal locations for DPS to take. There were many times when we had DPS in the portals and everything killed outside with ~20 seconds of downtime.

P3: Have the raid stand near a Sanity Well, as there’s no reason to spread out. Exorcism/taunt all the Guardians and stand facing away from Yogg (had all the casters on Yogg and two melee on the Guardians; there was never more than one up at a time.)

It's actually a really easy fight once you're able to consistently able to do P1 and P2 (duh, I guess.)
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby nicolax » Tue May 05, 2009 12:08 am

Some questions on the set-up (don't need to open a specific topic i think)

Our set-up for that fight is :

2 tanks
6 healers
17 dps

Do you think that fight is doable, through all phases, with 5 healers ?

How many dps do you send in the portals in p2 ? we usually send all melee (with some range) for a total of 9 dps and 1 healer

How do you deal with crushers ? those tentacles have way too many hp. We have a tank standing at melee range to prevent it to cast the –20% damage debuff, and the tank stands close to it until it reach 40 stacks of the damage buff (forgot the name), then we stop dps for a sec, the stack reset, go back in to prevent the crusher casting his debuff, 40 stacks, out, stop dps, reset, back in.... The main problem is that those crushers take way too long to die, and usually we get more and more through p2.

Order of priority in p2 : All melee on constrictors - 2 melee on corruptors - All range on crushers. Is it right ?

Is it really worth to try and interrupt corruptor tentacles and put a tank on it ?
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby inthedrops » Tue May 05, 2009 7:46 am

nicolax wrote:The main problem is that those crushers take way too long to die, and usually we get more and more through p2.

Order of priority in p2 : All melee on constrictors - 2 melee on corruptors - All range on crushers. Is it right ?

Is it really worth to try and interrupt corruptor tentacles and put a tank on it ?


Priority for us is constrictor > crusher > corruptor. Melee would help on corruptors whenever they weren't in the brain. Everyone had to help with constrictors. We don't worry about interupting corruptors except for the one the melee DPS might be burning down.

I think it might benefit you to think about this as a progression that will slowly come together rather than trying to solve all of your problems at the same time. The fight isn't easy on 25 man like it is on 10. At least I didn't think it was. And it initially looked a little overwhelming.

There is a REALLY tight bond between the brain group and the upstairs group. If the melee team in the brain room fails to traverse the mirage room quickly and stun the brain then the folks up top will get overwhelmed. Sometimes the answer to fixing the problems up top are to fix the DPS downstairs.

Our P2 progression went something like this in case it's any help to anyone:
1. Melee was the problem at first because they would fail to get sufficient DPS time on the brain or would fail to get out in time. They solved this after a few pulls by allocating portal locations and assigning portal exit groups so no one gets stuck. Sometimes a melee would be constricted right when the portal spawns. We learned to keep a real sharp eye for that, especially paladins that can use HoP.
2. Random people upstairs taking more damage than they should due to brain links and lazer beams. Also people were often too spread out so healers couldn't heal well. Some people would get constricted on the opposite side of everyone else. This was also caused by people simply not being grouped up well.
3. Once melee got their act together it was clear that ranged was not cutting it on crushers. We'd have three crushers up. Melee still had a lot of room to improve in the brain room however.
4. This is the part that took the longest. Ranged had to learn to make the following adjustments better than they were (1) Attack the correct crusher. They were split often (2) Stay as a group (3) When the tanks tell you to stop DPS STOP!. We really had to explain the way the stacks work and exactly what the tank is doing before they finally got it. And what's most interesting is that once they got it the tanks actually never had to say anything anymore. They simply knew when to stop and when to just keep burning. This was probably the biggest DPS breakthrough they had. (4) Attack constrictors whenever they are up then get back to crusher.
5. After a while we got to the point where we would no longer have three crushers up but at the phase 3 transitions we would be absolutely swamped with corruptors. I mean SWAMPED!!!
6. We solved the corruptor problem by getting more efficient with the crushers and by melee getting better downstairs. When everyone is doing their job well, we started to have a few seconds of downtime with no crushers up. And these few seconds were plenty of time to keep the corruptors in check.

We still have a couple coruptors and maybe 10% of a crusher to finish up when P3 starts but that's the evolution for us. It took us an embarrasingly long time to finally get the kill. I think somewhere nearing 100 attempts from first time seeing P1 to dead.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Candiru » Mon May 11, 2009 4:31 am

Tried this for the first time last night.

We managed to get to P2 a couple of times, but we had far too many adds up and wiped pretty quickly each time.

We were trying to spawn 1 extra add on the pull to give melee something to hit all the time, and tanks to run to the middle when their mob was low.

Sometimes mobs were dying to dots on transit, sometimes ranged/melee were pulling agro when tanks were running around a long way due to a cloud.

Is there anyway to tell who has spawned an add? We were getting overun towards the end with far far too many adds, which is probably the problem!
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Serelynn » Mon May 11, 2009 6:39 am

There's no debuff or damage associated with clouds in P1, as far as I can tell there is no way to announce people stepping into them. The adds come faster and faster as P1 goes on, a little after 2 minutes it's likely that you will likely see 2 adds spawn at the same time or back to back. P1 is about fast, controlled burst damage, which is a major problem in my guild right now holding us up from getting to work on P2 more.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Ewige » Mon May 11, 2009 10:35 am

[25] Had a lot of trouble with the clouds at first, could barely tell where they were and where they were going. Turns out my particle density was way down, just maxed it and now it's cake to see and avoid em. Stepping on clouds = add train wiping the raid and we had to yell at a few people before they took it seriously. We had 3 tanks constantly shuttling mobs between melee and Sara, even then we get overwhelmed if dps is too slow (or too fast! Damn DoTs). Had to work out a different HP percentage to peel the mobs back to the center depending on DPS composition (lower HP% with more melee, higher HP% with more warlocks).

We're stuck on P2, having trouble killing crushers on time and getting a bunch of stacking debuffs. From my perspective there seems to be a priority disconnect in the ranged group (crushers vs constrictors, positioning, the usual etc.). Our warrior tank having lots of fun intercepting back and forth and interrupting tentacles, I'm almost envious.

Failiest moment of the night: crusher spawns at the mouth as dps is jumping out of the brain phase, gibbing all but one of them who was saved by constrictor tentacle whipping him back to the center of Yogg only to instantly get mind controlled right after.

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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby PsiVen » Mon May 11, 2009 1:47 pm

I'm not really sure how the berserk timer works then. We definitely tried for a while to send barely anyone into the brain, with a strategy that lasted upwards of ten brain phases in an effort to keep things under control up top. This didn't work, because as we learned the stun from brain phases is more useful than the extra DPS, but if we'd gotten to P3 would he have instantly gone berserk?

Re: the crusher tentacles, I don't want to malign those who've succeeded tanking them, but to be clear to those learning the fight anew: Joust, do not tank. On hard mode in particular it is just wasteful to have DPS stop or switch any more than necessary. There's no reason not to joust, nobody will take any damage from them when it's done right. With Mimiron missing, the tank will be running in every 1.5 seconds which allows for nearly a full DPS rotation anyway with no damage taken.
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Glorr » Mon May 11, 2009 4:43 pm

I agree w/Psi. In 25, run in every now and again to poke the crushers if you can. But I've found that unless you have an abundance of paladins (we run 3-4), tankadins are generally better served as dispell/stun/interrupt machines for corrupters, despite the minimal threat they pose. Crushers do have the potential to one shot you if things get out of hand. I took a 47k hit last night. Yuck!
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Re: [10/25] Yogg Saron

Postby Dobbelsteen » Mon May 11, 2009 6:04 pm

There is a hard enrage after 15 minutes when the fight starts.
Ideally, you can have a maximum of ~12 adds spawning in phase 1 (not counting the ones you spawn yourself) before they start spawning in doubles and ganking your complete raid.
Then in phase 2 you should have a maximum of 3 brain phases, if the brain is at 30% by then, you have (well, we did) I think about 6 minutes left on the enrage timer, leaving plenty of time to finish off yog.
If you have a 4th brain phase, and manage to keep the tentacles in control, you have 90 seconds less to finish yog off, which resulted in a hard enrage first time we managed to live that long (1 big AOE splash and everyone drops dead :p)


As how we managed the fight, on the kill we had only me tank specced and 2 kitty druids going bear form for P1. Raid stacked in front of the door, and I tanked all adds on top of them, at around 20% the adds get taunted by one of the kittens who drags it to the middle and have 3 dedicated DPS finishing em off.
P1 is all about control and 2 simple rules, don't spawn too many adds (1 extra at the beginning is what we found best) and don't let them die anywhere except under sara. When you're at the last 12%, make sure ALL dps finishes off that 1 add, because we often had it happen that sara was at 12% and 1 add was almost dead under her, but by the time it was dead we had 4 extra adds spawn... QQ

P2 is easy for us, you can dispel a bit, DPS some constrictors or corruptors and dance with the crusher tentacles. Keep an eye on your sanity and make sure you enter P3 with max sanity as you won't get a second breathing room in P3 (in my case) to regain sanity.

I solotanked P3 for the kill, and I won't advise it tbh, it's nerve wrecking. Ideally you'd have 2 tanks standing between the ranged and yoggy. Have all healers stack up on them as well. An add spawns every ~10 seconds I'd say and they hit HARD at first (24k hit at max health I believe, laughable damage when on low %). With 2 tanks you just alternate on picking up adds, that way each add is focussed on by 1 tank and the dedicated DPS killing it until it dies. You should never have more than 2 adds alive at any time.
In my situation, I had an add on me, smacked it as hard as I could, pray for some crits and pray that the DPS won't overaggro while I make sure the next add doesn't gank anyone.


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