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[10/25] How To: Ulduar

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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Panzerdin » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:16 am

They lied.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Belloc » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:15 am

Even with the nerfs, the place is still much harder than Naxx.

We got our second kill on 25-man Razorscale this week, and we were still pushing the enrage. On our first attempt, he absolutely demolished the tanks because people weren't ready with the healing. On our kill, I died twice during the 50%->0% phase.

XT-002 has less health and a longer enrage, but the execution aspect of the fight is still difficult. Positioning is important, bombs have to be dealt with, good DPS is a requirement. MT healing on this fight is tough, especially with all of the raid damage. Adds present problems in that they heal the boss AND in that the add groups require healing and proper positioning. All of this takes a while to work out for some groups.

That's as far as our 25-man has gotten (we'll get 4 more done tonight :P), but that is enough to tell me that it's still not a cakewalk. Your average Naxx-25 guild will not be able to down these bosses. If you want the really hard stuff, do the hard modes. I don't mind tough fights, but Ulduar is more technically difficult so far than SSC and TK were. The only difference is that we are all better players because of those instances.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Cakes » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:19 pm

Yogg-Saron:

Phase 1:
This fight can be tanked with anywhere from 1-3 tanks, depending on your raid makeup, but 2 tanks seem to work really well. This is arguably the hardest phase of the fight and requires a little bit of finesse on your part to both handle adds that need to be finished as well as adds that need to be picked up. The objective of this phase is to pickup adds that Sara spawns every so often (steadily quicker as the phase progresses), dps them down to a relatively low percentage (20%, in our case), and drag them back on top of Sara to be finished off. When the adds die, they explode and take off a large chunk of Sara's health. After 9 adds have successfully bombed Sara, she'll transform and Yogg-Saron will officially enter the fight.

To add complication to this phase, there are wandering clouds of fog, which are both a boon and a detriment to your raid. If spawns are coming too infrequently, you can have someone step into a cloud to spawn another add. However, later in the phase you can barely afford to spawn additional mobs because you should be barely keeping up with the ones you have. We implemented the rule that you avoid clouds at all costs, unless you're a tank, and you're intentionally trying to spawn more mobs. Of note, the clouds are all on seperate paths, but they only move in one direction(CW or CCW), so if you move to the right of a cloud that is moving clockwise, you won't have to worry about it anymore.

A final note about the adds: They cast shadow volley, which does a decent amount of damage to everyone in range (ie. the whole raid) as well as apply a stacking 25% healing debuff. This has to be interrupted or you're going to quickly lose this phase. Melee make excellent interrupters for this phase, but when you're kiting adds to Sara, they can't follow you. Make sure to keep HoJ up for kiting so you can save your healers some stress and mana.

TL;DR:
Pickup adds, bomb Sara, avoid clouds, interrupt adds when needed.

Phase 2:
There isn't a lot to tank in this phase other than Crusher tentacles. The small Corrupter tentacles just spam debuffs on the raid (which you can help cleanse off), and the constricter tentacles pick raid members up and crowd control them until the tentacle is killed. Because your DPS hold such an important role in this phase, the order for DPS'ing targets should be constricter = crusher > corrupter tentacles. You want to free any melee dps that get caught in constrictors as fast as possible, and you want to tank crusher tentacles as long as possible so they don't keep stacking their DPS decrease debuff.

Of note, the Crusher tentacles will start to build a buff on themselves when you're in melee range. When you see it hit 40 stacks (approx. 10 seconds, I think. It builds really quickly), you want to get out, because even cooldowns won't save you from the damage these things can shell out.

Have your DPS rinse/repeat the portal phase and the kill-all-the-tentacles phase, and you'll hit phase 3.

Phase 3:
Your job is, once again, picking up adds and tanking them until death. Like phase 1, the faceless adds will spawn fairly slowly and then continually spawn quicker as the phase draws on. These adds hit the hardest at full health, and incredibly weak when they're near death. They can also regenerate health quickly through life drain, so be sure to use interrupts judiciously as well as burning them down as fast as possible. We used ranged dps to kill them quickly, but melee would work fine as well. Be sure to position your raid such that you have your back to Yogg Saron as much as possible and your healers (the ones that usually have initial agro) are directly in front of you to ease picking adds up. If you need to use a sanity well at some point in this phase (this phase is fairly long), be sure to do it early, and to tell your other tank that you need to step out away from the boss for a few seconds.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby itankforcash » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:43 am

Phase 1 tactic is fine, one thing to add the guardians can mind control any random player (including tanks) if you're human you got your racial, but priests need to be on their toes in this phase, a bad mind control and the raid can be feared into a cloud, or the mind controlled player running into a cloud etc.

Cakes wrote:Yogg-Saron:
Phase 2:
There isn't a lot to tank in this phase other than Crusher tentacles.The small Corrupter tentacles just spam debuffs on the raid (which you can help cleanse off), and the constricter tentacles pick raid members up and crowd control them until the tentacle is killed. Because your DPS hold such an important role in this phase, the order for DPS'ing targets should be constricter = crusher > corrupter tentacles. You want to free any melee dps that get caught in constrictors as fast as possible, and you want to tank crusher tentacles as long as possible so they don't keep stacking their DPS decrease debuff.

Of note, the Crusher tentacles will start to build a buff on themselves when you're in melee range. When you see it hit 40 stacks (approx. 10 seconds, I think. It builds really quickly), you want to get out, because even cooldowns won't save you from the damage these things can shell out.


Don't waste healers mana, you don't need to tank them, if melee get some time, they should nuke the corruptor tentacles, ranged should nuke the crushers, they cast a debuff called diminishing power which reduces damage done by 20% unless you're in melee range, when they cast this simply run it and hit it once to restart its cast which is a long cast if you have mimiron up, never go in melee range when the crushers have 30+ stacks of the damage increase, boomkins treants/shadowfiend/bubble+melee all are nice for restarting the crushers casts.

note on the constrictors, they ensnare you only, you can heal/dps while being constricted, if bubble is on cd and you need to get out fast, use it, if melee get constricted and they need to get inside his brain room, bop them and it removes it instantly.

As we don't have much to do in phase 2, HELP DISPEL, there is a disease which stuns (black plague) a poison which drains 1.2k mana a second, and a magic debuff which decreases movement speed by 50% I think.

You forgot to mention "brain link" a 2 person debuff which drains sanity FAST if not handled correctly, the 2 people who have the debuff will have a red beam linked to each other, get about 5 yards close to each other until the debuff has gone or you will more likely go insane (the beam goes white when your safe and red when your in danger)

Cakes wrote:Phase 3:
Your job is, once again, picking up adds and tanking them until death. Like phase 1, the faceless adds will spawn fairly slowly and then continually spawn quicker as the phase draws on. These adds hit the hardest at full health, and incredibly weak when they're near death. They can also regenerate health quickly through life drain, so be sure to use interrupts judiciously as well as burning them down as fast as possible. We used ranged dps to kill them quickly, but melee would work fine as well. Be sure to position your raid such that you have your back to Yogg Saron as much as possible and your healers (the ones that usually have initial agro) are directly in front of you to ease picking adds up. If you need to use a sanity well at some point in this phase (this phase is fairly long), be sure to do it early, and to tell your other tank that you need to step out away from the boss for a few seconds.


The bold sentence is wrong, they spawn 10 seconds after each other, ranged should nuke yogg and they should be tanked near yogg so melee can fast switch onto the adds when there up, not to mention warriors/enh sham/rogues/dk's are a lot more viable interupters. Also if you tank them properly you will never need to use a sanity well the whole of phase 3, tank them so you have your back to yogg and melee should dps them from the side or front to make sure they are also not hit by his lunatic gaze (-20% sanity over time) make sure melee know to switch to the next add when the first one is on 1% as you can't finish them off (thorim kills them on 1%)
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Cakes » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:16 am

Phase 1 tactic is fine, one thing to add the guardians can mind control any random player (including tanks) if you're human you got your racial, but priests need to be on their toes in this phase, a bad mind control and the raid can be feared into a cloud, or the mind controlled player running into a cloud etc.


Very valid, but not necessarily a tanking related item.

Don't waste healers mana, you don't need to tank them, if melee get some time, they should nuke the corruptor tentacles, ranged should nuke the crushers, they cast a debuff called diminishing power which reduces damage done by 20% unless you're in melee range, when they cast this simply run it and hit it once to restart its cast which is a long cast if you have mimiron up, never go in melee range when the crushers have 30+ stacks of the damage increase, boomkins treants/shadowfiend/bubble+melee all are nice for restarting the crushers casts.


Also valid, although not really what I'd recommend. Generally, despite not having a distance closing ability, I was first on the scene of a crusher tentacle and preventing it from casting. Every other Crusher your melee dps is going to be hitting the brain at nearly the same time stacks are growing to the "untankable" region, so the tentacle is going to be stunned anyway. I don't see any reason to not be on these unless they're at the point where they one shot a tank. Our healers were dps'ing most of the phase anyway, I'm not terribly concerned about 1-2 of them having to drop a heal occasionally.

note on the constrictors, they ensnare you only, you can heal/dps while being constricted, if bubble is on cd and you need to get out fast, use it, if melee get constricted and they need to get inside his brain room, bop them and it removes it instantly.


I was never hit by a constrictor in all our attempts, but noted. Good stuff.

As we don't have much to do in phase 2, HELP DISPEL, there is a disease which stuns (black plague) a poison which drains 1.2k mana a second, and a magic debuff which decreases movement speed by 50% I think.


Also awesome advice. Any transit time I spent, I spent dispelling while running. Often crushers appeared on the complete opposite side of Yogg, and there's really nothing else to do in transit.

You forgot to mention "brain link" a 2 person debuff which drains sanity FAST if not handled correctly, the 2 people who have the debuff will have a red beam linked to each other, get about 5 yards close to each other until the debuff has gone or you will more likely go insane (the beam goes white when your safe and red when your in danger)


Brain link is dangerous, but it really just turned out to be a non-issue for our raid team, which is why I didn't mention it. The vast majority of the time melee dps is gleefully whacking away at the brain and the rest of the time our ranged and tanks were in pretty close (i.e. 10 yards) quarters of each other.

The bold sentence is wrong, they spawn 10 seconds after each other, ranged should nuke yogg and they should be tanked near yogg so melee can fast switch onto the adds when there up, not to mention warriors/enh sham/rogues/dk's are a lot more viable interupters. Also if you tank them properly you will never need to use a sanity well the whole of phase 3, tank them so you have your back to yogg and melee should dps them from the side or front to make sure they are also not hit by his lunatic gaze (-20% sanity over time) make sure melee know to switch to the next add when the first one is on 1% as you can't finish them off (thorim kills them on 1%)


Hmm... I didn't know they had a fixed timer, I just figured it was faster because we had more piling up at the end of the fight than we did at the beginning of phase 3. Regardless, I can't agree with having melee on the adds vs. Yogg, but that's a raid organization discussion and not really related to how to tank p3. I ended up losing a fair bit of sanity in this phase simply from turning to pick up incoming adds, but that's also related to where we had our healers (fairly close to the tank). The rest of the time was definitely spent with my back to Yogg.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Panzerdin » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:17 am

Thanks all, but you're gonna have to wait on this one, because my computer is undergoing meltdown.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby itankforcash » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:26 am

Cakes wrote:
Phase 1 tactic is fine, one thing to add the guardians can mind control any random player (including tanks) if you're human you got your racial, but priests need to be on their toes in this phase, a bad mind control and the raid can be feared into a cloud, or the mind controlled player running into a cloud etc.


Very valid, but not necessarily a tanking related item.


I forgot to mention If while tanking you do get mind controlled, you will need to re-taunt as your threat has been wiped.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Rojhaz » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:10 am

Crushers aren't untankable. The debuff comes from them being hit so when it reaches ~30 stacks run out and have all dps stop on it and attack Corrupters or Constrictors. The debuff will fall off after ~3 seconds and you can go back in.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Salamandra » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:42 pm

It's less than 3 seconds, more like 1.5 seconds. It occasionally falls off for me even when ranged are dpsing it, and when it does I run back in for a few seconds.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Ajax » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:28 pm

on Kologarn if your 2nd tank is busy with adds you can do a quick bubble on and off to get rid of debuffs (macro ftw) instead of being stuck with them untill add tank free to taunt off you. (can do the same with razorscales deuffs also in phase 2)
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Tiranknight » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:32 am

Belloc wrote:Even with the nerfs, the place is still much harder than Naxx.

We got our second kill on 25-man Razorscale this week, and we were still pushing the enrage. On our first attempt, he absolutely demolished the tanks because people weren't ready with the healing. On our kill, I died twice during the 50%->0% phase.

XT-002 has less health and a longer enrage, but the execution aspect of the fight is still difficult. Positioning is important, bombs have to be dealt with, good DPS is a requirement. MT healing on this fight is tough, especially with all of the raid damage. Adds present problems in that they heal the boss AND in that the add groups require healing and proper positioning. All of this takes a while to work out for some groups.

That's as far as our 25-man has gotten (we'll get 4 more done tonight :P), but that is enough to tell me that it's still not a cakewalk. Your average Naxx-25 guild will not be able to down these bosses. If you want the really hard stuff, do the hard modes. I don't mind tough fights, but Ulduar is more technically difficult so far than SSC and TK were. The only difference is that we are all better players because of those instances.

Agreed, getting tired of seeing all these people complain about the relative difficulty of Ulduar... the guilds that cleared it within the first 2 resets were the top hardcore guilds that have been learning and practicing the fights since they first came out on the PTR.. and most didn't even do most of the hard modes.

On my server it's rare to find guilds that have a set 25 man team of dedicated raiders that are serious about progressing through content... most guilds have about 10-15 pro raiders who come prepared and do there homework.. the rest are average - to poor players who raid whenever they feel like it... that's why I believe there's only 2-3 guilds that are actually doing anything in Uld 25 on my server. The rest have to make 10 man teams, and are searching for more people.

I'm doing 10 man Ulduar and I think it's at a reasonable difficulty level... certainly more challenging than Naxx... if you're not atleast mostly Naxx 10/25 geared you will fail in Ulduar. In my opinion my guild has a very solid 10 man team going.. all responsible, knowledgeable, and well geared players... and even we barely cleared some of the pre-nerf Ulduar bosses. Having a fight like XT-002 with the 6 minute enrage timer was a little too ridiculous if you didn't have a Heroism/Bloodlust available, we had everyone at 3k+ DPS and still barely made it. Having a fight like Ignis before the hotfixes was not fun... Sorry but I don't enjoy wiping to a Boss for 4+ hours, because of 1 mishappening, like missing 1 brittle Iron Construct, or having the Construct tank's Healer getting slag potted and it screwing up with the healing rotation on the Main tank...

I guess some of the bosses really didn't need that much nerfing like Kologarn, or Auriaya, but fight's like Mimiron, Hodir, and Thorim... (atleast the Arena tanking part) require smart coordination, and are miles ahead of anything in Naxx in terms of relative difficulty. Yes If you have a smart group you will probably clear it after getting the mechanics down, the first few tries but you surely won't faceroll it like you did with most of the bosses in Naxx. (can't comment on Vezax, or Yogg yet as I haven't reached them yet)
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby PsiVen » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:47 pm

A few quite important notes from our kill tonight:

Tanks are responsible for the Crusher debuffs, but for max DPS they should not be tanking them and in fact should never get hit. Assuming you are using 2 full tanks, using a paladin to stun corrupters most of the time is useful as well. What you do as a tank is run in while it's channeling, hit it once and run out (really you never stop moving). You won't get hit, even if it has 99 stacks if you're fast enough. The melee hitbox is only as big as the black circle under it. It'll recast, don't go in until it's channeling again. Make sure the tanks don't do this to the same tentacle at once, because the second one will get meleed and one-shot if it's the DPS target.

Phase 1 adds deal variable damage based on distance from the boss. Phase 1 takes 9 adds 90% of the time, 10 adds if you're detonating them at max range, and 8 adds if you detonate each one exactly on top of Sara. If you do this perfectly you can head into P2 with only one add alive, and he'll be dead before the tentacles spawn.

Getting overwhelmed in P2 has EVERYTHING to do with P1 success and how many adds need to be cleaned up. Master P1 and P2 will fall into place. Make sure you're using all the portals for melee to nuke the brain, and that you time your transition well.

Melee left up top can and should DPS the crushers while they're stunned but RUN OUT before the stun expires. The 30% transition will also break the stun so make sure they're calling that out, we had one wipe on a perfect P2 because 3 people were gibbed by a crusher coming free early.

P3 is all about balancing your DPS. You need to keep killing adds, or they'll pile up and never die due to drain life healing everything. Heroism/Bloodlust are a must, as is managing sanity and having it high going into the phase.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby Mozen » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:09 am

A by-role description of the Flame Leviathan fight. I find it easier to get people to do their jobs properly if we lay it out this way.

[10] Flame Leviathan: what you need to do in each of the roles.

(1) Choppers

- Lay down oil and make sure the boss gets into it. Oil is laid out of the tail, in the direction your tail is pointing. Make sure you point it properly, and lay it down close to the boss, since most kiters don't kite properly and half your oil will be wasted if you don't lay it down close.

- Once the boss resets, go pick up the passenger. He will be parachuted down, ask the RL to give him a raid mark before the fight. Pick him up and spam heal him. He will be taking missile barrage damage the next time he shoots himself up. Don't let him die in the air. Bring him back to his car and wait for him to dismount.

* Use /focus on the turret duty player once he's on the turret, and leave your Speed Boost for when he ejects. You have a total of no more than 3 seconds to pick him up after he touches down. He will spend quite a long time in the air, find him. Find him.

- If you're not assigned to pick up the passenger, then make sure you go put down some oil under the boss.

- Have raid marks matching up the passenger and his car will allow you to return him quickly so he can join the reset DPS time, although this is unlikely, as the boss would have woken up by then. (e.g. star goes to moon, circle goes to square)

(2a) Demolisher drivers

- Stay at max range, if the boss focuses on you, kite it away and try to path the boss through existing oil patches. If you have a choice, kite him through burning oil patches.

- When Throw Passenger is available for use, hurl him up, but don't hurl when you're too close next to the boss. The passenger will go splat on the other side of the boss.

- If you have a good passenger giving you plenty of fuel, Hurl Barrel for some nice damage. Do not use up the fuel if you're kiting, leave it so your passenger can give you speed boosts.

- Hurl Builder when you have nothing else to do.

(2b) Demolisher passenger

- Always Grab Crate to stock up.

- If you're assigned to take out turrets, load yourself at the designated time (either right at the beginning or when the boss has a few stacks of speed), then use a macro to remind the driver to throw you up. DPS the turrets. You'll be automatically ejected when you've done your job. When you're parachuted out, spam ping the mini map so the choppers can pick you up quickly.

* If you're hunter or melee, ask the RL to assign someone else. Hunters cannot effectively DPS the closest turret, while melee cannot effectively DPS the rest of the other turrets. Casters are best for this job.

* Do not dismount by yourself. You will not have a parachute and will go splat. Wait for the boss to eject you.

* When you are close enough to the ground to survive the fall damage, click off the parachute so you can mount the chopper quickly. Make sure you remind the designated chopper driver to heal you. Use a macro, use voice chat, or remind him before the fight.

* Do not change forms (druids, shamans) because you can't get into the chopper that way. Unless you know what you're doing, otherwise wait for the chopper and use healthstones, potions or cooldowns to survive.

- Once you are taken back to your vehicle, dismount the chopper and mount your vehicle again.

- If you're not assigned to turret duty, then do Anti Air first, aim it above the boss. (If the average gear level is good, it is possible to ignore anti-air altogether.)

- Whenever you see an oil patch not on fire, aim your Anti Air at the oil to light it up, especially if there are mobs going into the patch. For boss as well as for the gauntlet, it's very effective.

- If your vehicle is kiting (big arrow above your heads), then use Increase Speed to help your driver get away from the boss.

- After the above, use Cannon and aim properly. Properly aimed cannons do a lot of damage, and can crit.

(3a) Siege driver

- If you're kiting (big arrow above you), run along the designated kite path. Use Charge to get away quickly.
- If you're not kiting, get close behind the boss and your first priority is to watch for and interrupt Flame Vent, using your Electroshock.

* Flame Vent has a emote and is channeled, there's no excuse missing it.
- Flame Vent left unattended will kill your choppers very quickly. It is your responsibility to interrupt it.

(3b) Siege passenger

- If your siege is kiting and the boss is close, give your vehicle a Shield.
- Anti Air unless your RL decides to ignore air missiles. Aim it above the boss, as well as aim it at unlit oil patches.
- Cannon when you have nothing else to do, and aim it properly. It can crit for some really good damage.
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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby lusisia » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:12 am

Our guild guide to Freya. Replace Raine with the tree druid in your guild:

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Re: [10/25] How To: Ulduar

Postby lusisia » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:14 am

And our guide to Hodir:

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