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Why not wear two Stam trinkets?

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Postby Dorvan » Wed May 28, 2008 1:42 am

Kelaan wrote:If the passive avoidance were the only issue, then sure -- but the panic button ability to get significantly more avoidance is the crucial part.


Exactly. The love for the Pocketwatch (which I share) is *all* about the Oh Shit button. The passive dodge is just a nice bonus.
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Postby jere » Wed May 28, 2008 6:20 am

moduspwnens wrote:
jere wrote:After some point, you can have too much stamina in that you don't make use of it at all.


Really? At what point is that?

No need to be rude. If you don't agree, you don't agree. We can do without the flippancy.

The point at which you have too much stamina is when you have more than enough to survive the particular fight's burst damage scenario. After that, the extra HP's rarely buy you anything, while the extra mitigation and avoidance do.

Are there times where that second stam trinket would be good? Sure, but as a general rule, it typically is not needed, unless you don't have the gear to make the fights EH requirement. Otherwise you are just wasting points on stats you rarely use for that fight, and you make healing that much more difficult on your healers.

moduspwnens wrote:
jere wrote:On the same note, you need to consider the fact that you don't use that extra 640 hp all the time. Basically how often do you dip below 640 health such that having that trinket will save you?


Well, of course I don't always use that 640 HP, but what kind of argument is that? More health is more health, which makes healing easier in bad situations. The important thing about that stamina is that it's always there, unlike a 2% dodge dice roll, or even a 16% dodge "on use" button. Also, it's not a huge deal, but more HP also scales positively with Ardent Defender, and DMC:V also has the small threat bonus to it.


But that is the point. That health is always there, but if you never use it, then what is the point of having it. You will use the dodge though and you will use extra AC or BV as well. The only times you use the HP's are:

1. When the last attack drops you below the 640 HP mark
2. When the attack that killed you differed from your previous hit points by 640 or less.

Those events are a lot rarer than you think. In comparison, the extra dodge will occur and it will occur at around 2% on average.

And yes, the extra HP is good for AD, but I definitely wouldn't suggest making your gear decisions around AD purely. It is an extra, not a gearing goal. Avoidance/BV/AC will all reduce the damage you take by more than the extra AD range you nab from 640 HP's.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed May 28, 2008 6:26 am

Gamingdevil wrote:Ok, I see a lot of people arugueing that "avoiding a 5k hit is better than 500 extra hp" and I feel like I have to say something. First off, after talents and kings, the DMC:V gives around 640 hp, the pocket watch gives you ~2% dodge.
Now assuming a boss that hits for 5k every second the pocket watch makes you take 6000 less damage per minute over the course of a fight while the DMC would give you 640 more hp for your healers to work with. I think your healers can heal you for 600 every 6 seconds, so it balances out.
If it weren't for the "oh sh.. button" you do need once in a while, I'd be leaning in favor of the stamina trinket (which I am using atm, way past uncrush anyway untill I replace some block rating on my gear)
The big thing is...sometimes it really doesn't matter having 600 more hp. Once you can survive a reasonable number of hits unhealed, getting more hits is inviable as in it won't be doable/worth it to get more to gain 'another unhealed hit'. It's where avoidance becomes useful. You can claim having 600 more hp is as useful as having 2% more dodge. I say, in a situation where my hp would drop so much as to make use of those 600, i'dp robably be better off with more dodge anyway.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed May 28, 2008 8:52 am

jere wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
jere wrote:After some point, you can have too much stamina in that you don't make use of it at all.


Really? At what point is that?

No need to be rude. If you don't agree, you don't agree. We can do without the flippancy.


Apologies, didn't mean to come across as "flippant."

jere wrote:The point at which you have too much stamina is when you have more than enough to survive the particular fight's burst damage scenario. After that, the extra HP's rarely buy you anything, while the extra mitigation and avoidance do.


The extra avoidance buys your healers a little bit of mana. This stems back to the whole avoidance vs. effective health argument. Sure, there's a point that you can have too much health, but I don't think it's at 20k raid buffed (normal pre-Sunwell). I'd say it's closer to when your healers are saying they're running out of mana. This way, even in the worst possible scenario, like being parry-thrash crushed during a Holy Shield refresh, you are more likely to survive.

jere wrote:Are there times where that second stam trinket would be good? Sure, but as a general rule, it typically is not needed, unless you don't have the gear to make the fights EH requirement. Otherwise you are just wasting points on stats you rarely use for that fight, and you make healing that much more difficult on your healers.


Sort of. My argument would be that having more HP for those bad situations (or rare uses) would make for a better tank. The larger buffer between full health and death would also make healing easier, as it would give healers more time to react, although it may be less mana efficient. Until healers start running out of mana, I think it's better that way.

jere wrote:But that is the point. That health is always there, but if you never use it, then what is the point of having it. You will use the dodge though and you will use extra AC or BV as well.


Indeed, if I never used it, there would be no point in having it. I also have a 150 HP to chest enchantment, as well as my 18 Stamina meta gem. They're each small pieces that could be attacked by the same "you may never use it" argument, but together net me over 1k HP. More health is more health, a bigger buffer is a bigger buffer, and it all makes the tank easier to heal and more likely to survive in bad situations.

jere wrote:Those events are a lot rarer than you think. In comparison, the extra dodge will occur and it will occur at around 2% on average.


Well, back to the Effective Health vs. Avoidance debate. It's not about how often it happens. The fact of the matter is that it does, and I believe a better tank survives it, while a worse tank perhaps takes overall less damage, but survives less in tough situations, and is more difficult to heal.

jere wrote:And yes, the extra HP is good for AD, but I definitely wouldn't suggest making your gear decisions around AD purely. It is an extra, not a gearing goal. Avoidance/BV/AC will all reduce the damage you take by more than the extra AD range you nab from 640 HP's.


Sure, but there are very few trinkets available with AC (an Effective Health stat similar to stamina), and again, avoidance and block value will reduce overall incoming damage, but may or may not help when things become tough.

Dorvan wrote:Exactly. The love for the Pocketwatch (which I share) is *all* about the Oh Shit button. The passive dodge is just a nice bonus.


I don't argue too much with its effectiveness as a panic button (outside of Sunwell), but I'd use it in relatively few encounters (Halazzi and Prince come to mind) compared to DMC:V.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed May 28, 2008 9:28 am

moduspwnens wrote:I don't argue too much with its effectiveness as a panic button (outside of Sunwell), but I'd use it in relatively few encounters (Halazzi and Prince come to mind) compared to DMC:V.


...and I'd counter that there are relatively few encounters where 640 HP will make a consistent difference, yet in almost an encounter you may have to buy yourself a couple seconds to survive. When you've just hit 1k HP, 15% dodge is a hell of a lot more useful than 640 HP. Now there are a few exceptions (e.g Kael), but I haven't used 2 stam trinkets on a regular basis since the Combat Expertise change...it's simply possible to meet the EH thresholds for any fight up to and including Illidan without going dual-stam. If you're below the needed EH then sure, go dual stam, but on almost any encounter if you think you're below the EH threshold, somethings probably wrong with either some other part of your gear or your healing.
Last edited by Dorvan on Wed May 28, 2008 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jere » Wed May 28, 2008 9:28 am

I think this is trying to turn into an EH versus Avoidance debate, which this thread is not about. This thread is about whether or not a second stam trinket is more useful than something else, say an avoidance trinket. I am actually more of an EH person than avoidance person (I know you probably don't believe that lol), but what we are discussing is a single slot change, not a gear set idealology, and there is a subtle yet important difference between the two types of discussion.

moduspwnens wrote:The extra avoidance buys your healers a little bit of mana. This stems back to the whole avoidance vs. effective health argument. Sure, there's a point that you can have too much health, but I don't think it's at 20k raid buffed (normal pre-Sunwell). I'd say it's closer to when your healers are saying they're running out of mana. This way, even in the worst possible scenario, like being parry-thrash crushed during a Holy Shield refresh, you are more likely to survive.

I disagree, 20k raid buffed is very sufficient for a lot of content, even early BT/MH. That's plenty of health to survive 3-4 hits, depending on the boss, which is plenty of time for incoming heals. Avoidance only buys healers mana in fights where they can heal reactively. In fights where they heal proactively, it doesn't. However, it always buys less incoming DPS regardless of the healer's healing style/method.

Again, however, you still need to have some base amount of EH to survive, like in your thrash example. That doesn't negate the use of avoidance as a primary stat, but merely enforces that there is some minimum EH level for each fight.

moduspwnens wrote:Indeed, if I never used it, there would be no point in having it. I also have a 150 HP to chest enchantment, as well as my 18 Stamina meta gem. They're each small pieces that could be attacked by the same "you may never use it" argument, but together net me over 1k HP. More health is more health, a bigger buffer is a bigger buffer, and it all makes the tank easier to heal and more likely to survive in bad situations.

You are correct, multiple small things add up to big things. I am a firm believer in this as well. However, we are talking about single slot changes, not multiple slot changes. I would argue that if you looked at the 150 HP enchant and say the 15 defense one is a viable alternative depending on your gear. The BV meta an alternative for the 18 stam, and an avoidance trinket an alternative for a second stam trinket. Would I forgo stam altogether for all 3 of these at once? Of course not. However, if I wanted to change one thing, I could see each of these as a good alternative.

The reason the trinket slot is in discussion is that it typically has the option of utility (oh crap button for example), whereas an enchant or gem decision doesn't as often.

But let's not taint the discussion. I don't think anyone here is trying to say "forgo stamina for avoidance", but more about what makes the most sense in the second trinket slot. I simply do not believe that when talking about a single slot that the tradeoff of a second stam trinket for an avoidance one is at all detrimental (unless you don't meet the EH reqs for a particular encounter or you aren't going to be taking much damage anyways).

moduspwnens wrote:Sure, but there are very few trinkets available with AC (an Effective Health stat similar to stamina), and again, avoidance and block value will reduce overall incoming damage, but may or may not help when things become tough.

The thing that most people gloss over is that having more AC, dodge, BV prevent you from getting into situations that are tough. Trading 2% dodge for a second stam trinket will provide you more HP that will save you (only) in those 2 situations I mentioned earlier, but it will also increase the chance that you will get into those situations. Remember how small things add up to big things? Well, having dodge/AC/BV while not very shiny in terms of "save me right now" situations, are very good as over time they prevent you from ever reaching those situations or at least reduce the chance that you will see those situations. EDIT: and the situations I am talking about are those where 640 health would have saved you.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 am

Well, clearly we're not going to agree on this, but I think I made my points.
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Postby jere » Wed May 28, 2008 9:49 am

moduspwnens wrote:Well, clearly we're not going to agree on this, but I think I made my points.


Definitely, and I think they were good points too, don't get me wrong. Just differing sides to the same discussion. Sorry if it came across other than that. I am not actually a mean spirited person at all, honest.
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Postby Ajax » Wed May 28, 2008 10:34 am

I run with 2 stamina trinkets, the crimson serpent and the commendation of keal I like this combo and rarely use anything else the Crimson serpent gives nice threat on use and the COT give nice avoidance at 35%, i have noticed though that a lot of players who use 1 stamina trinket and one avoidance trinket gem a lot for stamina where as a player who use's 2 stamina trinkets gems more for avoidance so in the end i think it balance's out.

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way here I think you trinket up to suit your play style/encounter.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed May 28, 2008 11:31 am

Ajax wrote:I run with 2 stamina trinkets, the crimson serpent and the commendation of keal I like this combo and rarely use anything else the Crimson serpent gives nice threat on use and the COT give nice avoidance at 35%, i have noticed though that a lot of players who use 1 stamina trinket and one avoidance trinket gem a lot for stamina where as a player who use's 2 stamina trinkets gems more for avoidance so in the end i think it balance's out.

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way here I think you trinket up to suit your play style/encounter.


The problem with going 2x stam trinkets and gemming for avoidance is that even if you wind up with similar stats, you lose out of the "oh shit" button the pocketwatch provides. I thinking gemming/gearing for EH on the rest of your gear should be more or less a given, whether you go 2x stam or 1 stam/1 avoidance for your trinkets.

The Crimson Serpent is decent for threat, but I see threat trinkets as situationally useful, not as part of of one's default tanking set up.
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Postby Kikiel » Wed May 28, 2008 11:51 am

Dorvan wrote:
Ajax wrote:I run with 2 stamina trinkets, the crimson serpent and the commendation of keal I like this combo and rarely use anything else the Crimson serpent gives nice threat on use and the COT give nice avoidance at 35%, i have noticed though that a lot of players who use 1 stamina trinket and one avoidance trinket gem a lot for stamina where as a player who use's 2 stamina trinkets gems more for avoidance so in the end i think it balance's out.

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way here I think you trinket up to suit your play style/encounter.


The problem with going 2x stam trinkets and gemming for avoidance is that even if you wind up with similar stats, you lose out of the "oh shit" button the pocketwatch provides. I thinking gemming/gearing for EH on the rest of your gear should be more or less a given, whether you go 2x stam or 1 stam/1 avoidance for your trinkets.

The Crimson Serpent is decent for threat, but I see threat trinkets as situationally useful, not as part of of one's default tanking set up.


The only reason I use 2 stam trinkets and gem avoidance is because none of the avoidance trinkets will drop for me.
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Postby Melathys » Wed May 28, 2008 3:11 pm

I'd so use crimson serpent if my paladin was a JC.
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Postby Harlequinn » Wed May 28, 2008 3:59 pm

If you don't have it already maybe you should grab itemrack or a similar mod to setup various outfits. 2 stamina trinkets is not a bad idea for say a mitigation type thing or like standardized tanking. But when threat is an issue throw on some more spell dmg, or if you are worried about getting owned maybe some avoidance trinkets will work.

As a good rule of thumb, never get rid of any one item unless there is a clear upgrade for it. If it's a sidegrade type deal then throw it in the bank or sumthin. The fact is there is no clear cut path for how to be the best tank EVER. Everything is situational, so roll with 2 stamina trinkets or hold onto the pocketwatch it really doesn't matter.
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Postby Warheit » Thu May 29, 2008 9:00 am

i think with 2.4, the line that both sides of the argument stand on has been blurred quite a bit, since theres now items like commendation which gives sta and passive "oh shit" effect when u get dipped into low health (which is where most, allthough not all the situations in where one would activate the moroes trinket happens.) and also theres thing like crimson serpent, which is a sta trinket with a free destruction pot on 2 min cooldown.

the only concrete thing I've managed to do is run with crimson as my 2nd trinket and if we find I'm taking too much damage, or the healers are slacking or such, then ill switch to the watch for the next attempt.

but so far in the little time I've spent testing this the rule of thumb has been that if its an encounter thats progression for us, the watch has been more helpful, if its an encounter we've learned and people know what to expect, the crimson serpent helps out more. There's exceptions to this of course, i rather have the dodge in azgalor than the extra hp for example, and i rather have the crimson serpent for gorefiend.

basically, carry both, switch em out depending on what it is ur tanking.
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Postby Ashmadai » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:15 am

Alright, so I'm reviving this thread to switch the question around: Should I wear 1 Stam and 1 Avoidance trinket now, or 2 avoidance?

For trash and what not I always just use 2 stam which puts me at about 16.5k unbuffed HP.

Lately in Hyjal/ZA I've been using Moroes/Guardian's Alchemist stone as my trinkets, which puts me at about 15.1k unbuffed HP but 57% unbuffed avoidance.

I still get well over 18k HP buffed with those 2 on, even without commanding shout/imp buff, so I'm kinda liking it. The only thing I don't like is not having the passive commendation of kael'thas dodge going.

My biggest problem now is I think I'd like to use commendation/guardian's alchemist because the amount my mana pots give back with the stone on is ridiculous, plus I get more avoidance out of it than the pocket watch. However, I lose the oh shit button of the pocketwatch.

So what to do? Double avoidance for bosses or Commendation/Guardian's?
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