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Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests Here)

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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:58 am

degre wrote:Also, your math is wrong as you are not considering procs, even not capped I would still have the Soulshifter that would cap me on average 10 seconds every minute and windwalk, which is not much but helps.


I don't think it's good advice to suggest people use procs to reach CTC cap. I also don't think it's good advice to be forgoing cap on progression content, even if the majority of the damage taken is magical. Unblocked hits are still dangerous, and you buy yourself a good chunk more effective health from reaching cap than you would by converting that mastery to stamina, in most cases.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:10 am

I assume you meant impale. In which case tell your other tank to taunt while the tentacle is casting impale and see that you have 0% possibility of receiving an unblocked hit, as the first hit after impale will go to him.


No, I mean when the tentacle slaps down on a random raid member, it can target the tank. I ran upto the tentacle as it spawned, ate some melee, ate the slap, and ate an unblocked hit in 2.5-3 seconds, all prior to the first impale. So full health to dead in 2.5-3 secs. Yes, it was some bad luck to get everything like that, but with 4 platforms and my being uncapepd I was running that risk and it happened on the 4th platform. I no longer think being uncapepd for that fight is worth it. We 1T and 2H, so other tank taunting is not an option.

Think about impales, I alternate GanK and AD by platform (glyphed DP obviously useless for impale), and get a Hand of Sacrifice for every impale (1 per platform). For impales where I am running AD and getting HoS I can dip pretty low after the impale and even if I pop Holy Shield as Impale goes off, if I am not block capped I would be straining the healers as AD + HoS would leave me low if an unblocked hit would come in. So two death scenarios arrising from not being block capped in ph1 outweigh the benefit of increased health for ph2. For a ~15 min fight, wiping due to an unblocked hit is too big a risk.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:22 am

My math isn't wrong, because you can't count procs. You are looking at this from a "what can I best do to stay alive" perspective. However, you need to be looking at this from a "what can I do to help my healers keep me alive". They can't give you a smaller heal and say "it's ok, his soulshifter proc is up so he'll take less damage there". CTC coverage is designed to smooth out the damage curve and make healing you easier.

Also, your shining example of CTC being useless (specifically, madness impales) - you do realize that most people 1-tank that fight, correct?
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby degre » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:33 am

theckhd wrote:
degre wrote:Also, your math is wrong as you are not considering procs, even not capped I would still have the Soulshifter that would cap me on average 10 seconds every minute and windwalk, which is not much but helps.


I don't think it's good advice to suggest people use procs to reach CTC cap. I also don't think it's good advice to be forgoing cap on progression content, even if the majority of the damage taken is magical. Unblocked hits are still dangerous, and you buy yourself a good chunk more effective health from reaching cap than you would by converting that mastery to stamina, in most cases.

As I said, situational and personal.

In my opinion I find more useful stacking stamina at the expense of CTC cap when under certain circumstances. Which I have explained above.

And this goes for Heroic, as in normal I've had way more problems and I was pretty much forced to change, before seeing that Hagara can simply be sidestepped, with two mastery trinkets I was being gibbed, with two stamina trinkets on the other hand (almost 20k hp more) my healers could keep me up even without cooldowns. Mind that my gear wasn't the best to begin with as I didn't spend much time in the FL, but this would actually be more relevant as usually the people that come here for info are not the ones in full 391, but the ones with gear that is not top notch and want some trick to survive.

While is true that less CTC means more overall damage, it is also true that more stamina offers your healers a bigger buffer and reaction time.

Fenrìr wrote:
Also, your math is wrong as you are not considering procs, even not capped I would still have the Soulshifter that would cap me on average 10 seconds every minute and windwalk, which is not much but helps.



What's the sudden appeal of reaching tCTC with procs? I know this patch is quite a bit of unavoidable damage, but there's a lot of avoidable as well.

No appeal, but when you're not capped every little bit helps.

Klaudandus wrote:
degre wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Soulshifter procs on demand?

No, but as far I've seen is a regular proc for 20 seconds every 2 minutes, hence why I said about 10 seconds of uptime per minute on average.


Yeah, but the chances of it proccing exactly when you need it is quite.... low. Not to mention that the proc is worth about 30% block which goes completely wasted as we don't have the same blocking mechanics as warriors

wouldn't indomitable pride be better for such events? its supposed to trigger when you go below 50% with any attack, and while it has an ICD, you normally are at over 50% for most of the tentacle until the impale event.

I wear the trinket no matter what, whenever it procs is an extra, simple as that, and I was replying to 'you get an extra unblocked hit every 20', which means overall damage in the course of the full fight, to which I have said every minute for ten seconds I am capped.

And about indomitable pride, I wear both, so I can't use another indomitable pride and I have to do with what I have.

I am not banking on that proc, I have simply said that if you want to do math, factor that in too.



Hrobertgar wrote:
I assume you meant impale. In which case tell your other tank to taunt while the tentacle is casting impale and see that you have 0% possibility of receiving an unblocked hit, as the first hit after impale will go to him.


No, I mean when the tentacle slaps down on a random raid member, it can target the tank. I ran upto the tentacle as it spawned, ate some melee, ate the slap, and ate an unblocked hit in 2.5-3 seconds, all prior to the first impale. So full health to dead in 2.5-3 secs. Yes, it was some bad luck to get everything like that, but with 4 platforms and my being uncapepd I was running that risk and it happened on the 4th platform. I no longer think being uncapepd for that fight is worth it. We 1T and 2H, so other tank taunting is not an option.

Think about impales, I alternate GanK and AD by platform (glyphed DP obviously useless for impale), and get a Hand of Sacrifice for every impale (1 per platform). For impales where I am running AD and getting HoS I can dip pretty low after the impale and even if I pop Holy Shield as Impale goes off, if I am not block capped I would be straining the healers as AD + HoS would leave me low if an unblocked hit would come in. So two death scenarios arrising from not being block capped in ph1 outweigh the benefit of increased health for ph2. For a ~15 min fight, wiping due to an unblocked hit is too big a risk.

Sorry, I haven't thought about the slap, but so far I never died to that, it's either I am extremely lucky (I'm not) or I have enough stamina to survive both.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:17 pm

degre wrote:
theckhd wrote:I don't think it's good advice to suggest people use procs to reach CTC cap. I also don't think it's good advice to be forgoing cap on progression content, even if the majority of the damage taken is magical. Unblocked hits are still dangerous, and you buy yourself a good chunk more effective health from reaching cap than you would by converting that mastery to stamina, in most cases.

As I said, situational and personal.

In my opinion I find more useful stacking stamina at the expense of CTC cap when under certain circumstances. Which I have explained above.

Right. And I'm saying that in nearly all situations, especially in 25H progression, I would disagree with that opinion. Hagara can still melee for 100k pre-block:
Code: Select all
[21:42:46.952] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Theck 27975 (A: 42758, B: 73621)
[21:42:51.062] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Theck 11377 (A: 23852, B: 36667)
[21:42:51.062] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Theck Miss
[21:42:53.557] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Theck 47514 (B: 49454)
[21:42:53.557] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Theck Miss


As can Yor'sahj:
Code: Select all
[22:34:08.670] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping hits Theck 50523 (B: 22699)

[22:34:30.577] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping Void Bolt Theck 67749 (A: 735, R: 19023)
[22:34:32.583] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping Void Bolt Theck 23983 (R: 6662)
[22:34:32.886] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping hits Theck 67363 (B: 30265)
[22:34:34.724] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping Void Bolt Theck 26981 (R: 3331)
[22:34:35.303] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping hits Theck 3139 (A: 33681, B: 38323)

[22:35:17.345] Yor'sahj the Unsleeping hits Theck 69062 (B: 31028)


And in both cases, those attacks can come in close proximity to a dangerous unblockable event like Focused Assault or Void Bolt. While there's a lot of that sort of damage this tier, it's also usually very predictable, and you're expected to use cooldowns to counteract it.

Madness is probably the only fight that doesn't clearly benefit from CTC cap, because the really serious threats aren't blockable. Impale and Tetanus shouldn't accompany other blockable damage (on 25 at least; if you're solo-tanking it on 10 then CTC is still worth it for melee-Impale-melee). You could get a stray melee-Bolt-melee event, but you can run a cooldown for that. Similarly, you could get the melee-Crush-melee described earlier, but it's unlikely (and when running in, you can have HS up to help).

However, given that you're expected to run cooldowns for Tetanus and Impale, and that both mechanics are completely survivable without stacking stamina, I also don't think it's entirely necessary to swap trinkets for that fight.

degre wrote:While is true that less CTC means more overall damage, it is also true that more stamina offers your healers a bigger buffer and reaction time.

"More overall damage" is a meaningless metric in most cases, and in any event that's not why CTC is attractive. In fact, it's attractive for exactly the benefits you're attributing to stamina. Guaranteeing that you mitigate at least 30% of every boss melee gives your healers a bigger buffer and more reaction time.

To give you a simple example, consider the case raised earlier of a mastery trinket (453 mastery rating, for ~2.53 mastery or 5.7% CTC) and an equivalent stamina trinket (680 stam, or around 11.5k health).
Let's assume you take a big 120k unblockable attack (impale, magic, whatever) and two melee attacks bookending it (50k each if blocked, 71k if unblocked). If you're 5% below cap, your worst-case scenario is:
-71k (melee)
-120k (magic)
-71k (melee)
for a total of -242k damage, generally enough to kill most raid-buffed tanks. For each of those attacks you block, you prevent 21k damage during the death scenario. The 11.5k health you've gained by using the trinket isn't enough to cover the gap created by even one block, let alone two. Those numbers weren't chosen specifically to make that point, either. It works out that way for any single melee attack that's larger than 38k (unblocked, so 26.6k blocked). There are very few bosses that hit that weakly in heroic content.

You can very easily argue that the CTC really does give your healers a better buffer than the stamina in most cases. A string of unavoided attacks is the single most likely thing to kill you in current content. Your healers generally have time to react if you dodge or parry one of those two swings, but they may not be able to respond to melee-magic-melee. Most of my death logs look exactly like that: 2-5 unavoided damage events in a row. Guaranteeing that all 2-5 of those attacks will be blocked is almost always going to end up giving me more mitigated damage than I'd gain in health by trading under-cap mastery for Stamina.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Era » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:53 am

I have a quick question regarding dodge/parry. I've come to understand that we should aim to balance these two as neatly as possible (something to do with DR?), but I'm seeing several prominent paladin tanks who are gearing for CTC cap but still have hugely imbalanced numbers. Anyone care to educate me on the matter?

EDIT: To clarify, when I say hugely imbalanced I mean more than raid buffs will make up for. And none of the examples were (at the time at least) using the stacking dodge trinket from Spine.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:08 am

I think the question is... did they have everything that could be reforged, reforged. If they didn't, and were still largely imbalanced, then I would wonder. But otherwise it could be largely due to what stats the gear (that has dropped) actually has.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Schroom » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:14 am

mh, well the only explanation I have for this is the lack of mastery/dodge gear.
I myself got about 1% more parry than dodge raid-buffed, even tho I forged my whole parry to dodge.

but, keeping parry and dodge balanced is the least of your worries on hard-modes, you often prioritize other things here, and if that means to lose some avoidance, than you do it.

an example would be to drop about some dodge in order to get Exp capped without losing CTC cap.

I did that myself, you could easily get at least 3% or maybe more avoidance. but , especially in 10 man the tank dps is needed.

and a couple less dodges won't wipe your raid, nor make your healers go oom. Enrages will tho.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Era » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:23 am

Well, since I'm H10-man raiding I too have grabbed the exp soft cap (26) and am keeping my CTC cap with about 17.5% dodge and parry. It's not a problem to reforge them closer to each other, it just takes a bit of time. So what I'm really wondering is whether I've missed the memo and keeping them balanced is pointless, or if other people are just being lazy? :P
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:13 am

Probably a little bit of both. Balancing dodge/parry will still give you the most avoidance, because you'll lose less in diminishing returns. But it's a fairly small effect - often less than a tenth of a percent of total avoidance. In my case, I'm focusing on maximizing CTC with mastery so I can convert as much of my gemming as possible to Stamina, so I've made some reforge choices that preclude me from keeping dodge/parry balanced.

Also, I'm lazy. Luckily Mr. Robot does what it can to balance my avoidance, but it's basically limited to using items that a) haven't been reforged yet, and b) aren't dodge/parry already.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Era » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:24 am

Alright, thanks for the replies people. :) I've been spending quite a bit of time getting my dodge/parry balanced while raid buffed, so I was worried that it was all for naught.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:42 am

For my tank, who generally doesn't run as much in the way of heroics, I had like 10%+ dodge/13%+ parry in FL, but that was the best I could do to reach CTC cap thru Mastery given what was available to me at the time. So I ran with a significant imbalance for quite some time.

Now, so much of the gear has so much dodge/parry on it and again few Mastery drops other than LFR tier that I now have am close to even at like 17%+ dodge/18%+ parry at CTC. I would rather convert more dodge/parry into Mastery and then convert some Mastery (gems/trinket and such) to pile on more stam or hit/exp, but I don't currently have the gear options for that.
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Schroom » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:29 pm

hi guys,

I now got souldrinker Normal and souldrinker Raidfinder version.

No I thought of using souldrinker normal with windwalk as my standard tanking weapon. But i also had the idea of using my LFR version with landslide as a DPS alternative for fights where I might need a bit more dps. NOW is LFR souldrinker with Landslide from a DPS perspective, bether then Normal version Souldrinker with Windwalker? or is it not? :)
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby Era » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:09 pm

On a hunch I'd say there won't be much difference, if anything the Normal with Windwalk is better, but I'll leave the final say so to the mathematics. ;)
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Re: Gear Check/Advice Thread (All Specific Advice Requests H

Postby econ21 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:46 pm

Era wrote:On a hunch I'd say there won't be much difference, if anything the Normal with Windwalk is better, but I'll leave the final say so to the mathematics. ;)


I think the maths agrees with your hunch. Theck crunched the relevant numbers in this post (and the one after on enchants):

viewtopic.php?p=593316#p593316

If I can read the numbers right, normal SD is about 377 dps better than LFR whereas landslide raises your dps by 253 (2% hit, 10 expertise, 939 SoT). Frees up a slot in ones bags, I guess.
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