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Resilience Rating & Crits.

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Resilience Rating & Crits.

Postby Raskii » Wed May 30, 2007 7:16 am

We all know that, as you gain Defense, your chance to be critted is transformed into a chance to be missed. Thus, at 490 Defense, your chance to be hit with a Critical Strike is -5.60% and your chance to be missed is +5.60%.

My question is: Does Resilience work in the same way?

Does Resilience also convert your chance to be critted into a chance to be missed, or does it merely shift it to a chance to be normally struck?

The reason I'm asking is because on some "tanking" gear, you see both Resilience Rating and Defense Rating/other Avoidance. And, while Resilience is primarily viewed as a PvP stat, it does carry some usefulness in PvE too. The question is just one of "how much?"

My current point system uses the following values:
  • 1 Armor - 1 point
  • 1 Defense Rating - 507 points
  • 1 Dodge Rating - 528 points
  • 1 Parry Rating - 423 points
  • 1 Resilience Rating - 253 points
  • 1 Shield Block Rating - 634 points
These values are the relative avoidance percentages (in ten thousandths) per point of each stat. Therefore, 1 point of Defense Rating is equal to 0.0507% avoidance, 1 point of Dodge Rating is 0.0528%, etc.

Note: Shield Block Rating is actually worth 1268 points (or 0.1268%) but, because a block merely reduces damage taken instead of negating it completely, I've only valued it at half that.

Anyway, does the point value for Resilience seem right or should it be modified?
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Postby Lore » Wed May 30, 2007 7:24 am

Resilience just turns crits into hits, and although you can certainly stack up a bunch of resilience instead of getting 490 defense, you'll also be missing 5.6% miss, dodge, parry, and block. It's also on its own roll, after the attack table, so it doesn't move anything around.

The reason it's generally considered a PVP stat is due to the higher crit chances that players have, and the fact that it works on spells as well as melee (spells in PVE can't crit).
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Postby Eloff » Wed May 30, 2007 3:53 pm

It's also on its own roll, after the attack table, so it doesn't move anything around.


So if you have less than 490 def, but use Resilience to make you 'uncrittable', and have also pushed crush off the table... that would make you still able to be 'hit'? If so, I'd rather push crush/regular hits off the table completely and only see xxxx (401 blocked).

Am I right?
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Postby Thels » Thu May 31, 2007 12:46 am

Yeah. Ignore Resilience when picking your gear.

If however you got a piece of gear with Resilience on it for other reasons (for example, Gladiator's Gavel), then you can actually do with slightly less Defense than 490 and use cheaper stats like Block or Dodge to fill the CB immune gap.
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Postby Raskii » Thu May 31, 2007 6:17 am

Lore wrote:Resilience just turns crits into hits

OK, that's what I wanted to know.
It's also on its own roll, after the attack table, so it doesn't move anything around.

Does this mean that, if you use Resilience to "cap off" your uncrittable status, you're not really uncrittable?

I guess the question is now "How does the second table in the two-roll system work?"

Let's say you have 464 Defense and 40 Resilience. If this were a single roll system, you'd be uncrittable. But does the second roll care what your "crit resistance" from anything other than Resilience is?

Basically, do you have a 0% chance to be critted on the Resilience roll or do you still have a 4.59% chance to be critted?
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Postby Thels » Thu May 31, 2007 6:28 am

No, it does make you uncritable. But it just turns Crit into Hit.

Defense reduces the chance you get crit (turns Crit into Hit) and increases the chance you get missed (turns Hit into Miss). You could read that as Crit being turned into Miss, but it's not entirely true.

Yes, Resilience does reduce the chance to be crit. However, it doesn't affect the chance to be hit or crushed in any way, so you still need your Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block chance up to 102.4% regardless of how much Resilience you have.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 8:06 am

Eloff wrote:
It's also on its own roll, after the attack table, so it doesn't move anything around.


So if you have less than 490 def, but use Resilience to make you 'uncrittable', and have also pushed crush off the table... that would make you still able to be 'hit'? If so, I'd rather push crush/regular hits off the table completely and only see xxxx (401 blocked).

Am I right?


Correct.

It works like this: the attack table goes first, as normal. If the result of that roll was that you would be crit, it compares your resilience vs the crit chance of the attack. So if the attack had a 10% chance to crit and you have 3% worth of resilience, it rolls 1-10 and if the result is 3 or below it converts it to a hit instead. That means that you got a hit from the crit portion of the attack table.
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Postby Raskii » Thu May 31, 2007 10:22 am

Lore wrote:. . .

It works like this: the attack table goes first, as normal. If the result of that roll was that you would be crit, it compares your resilience vs the crit chance of the attack. So if the attack had a 10% chance to crit and you have 3% worth of resilience, it rolls 1-10 and if the result is 3 or below it converts it to a hit instead. That means that you got a hit from the crit portion of the attack table.

So you're saying that, if a mob attacks me that has a 5.6% chance to crit me (like a lvl 73 mob) and I only have 464 Defence (meaning I still have a 1% chance to be hit by his crit), it's theoretically possible that I could still be critted EVEN if I have more than 1% crit resist from Resilience?

Using the stats from above, and assuming I get a crit from the first roll, what does the second roll look like?

Roll Resilience against full crit % (/roll 0.00 - 5.60)?
0.00 - 1.01 (from an assumed 40 Resilience) convert crit to hit
1.02 - 5.60 crit stays a crit

or

Roll Resilience against "remaining" crit% - in which case I'm effectively uncrittable (/roll 4.60 - 5.60)?
4.60 - 5.61 (from 40 Resilience) convert crit to hit
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 11:59 am

I believe it's the second one, though I haven't seen any actual testing on it. It reduces your chance to be crit, however a crit that gets turned into a hit by resilience still procs things like flurry and so forth, so the game has to have figured out that it was a crit before it takes resilience into effect. Hence, the second roll.
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Postby kurros » Thu May 31, 2007 12:33 pm

I don't think there is a second roll. I think the resilience-reduced crits are just put into it's own category. Like a hit can be dodged, or parried, a crit can be turned into a hit through defense or turned into a hit through resilience. Dodge and parry are on the same roll the same as resilience hits and defense hits, and dodges allow for overpower just like resilienced hits proc enrage etc.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 12:48 pm

A hit cannot be dodged or parried. That's not how the attack table works. See my writeup in the basic training forum: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... .php?t=331
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Postby kurros » Thu May 31, 2007 1:00 pm

Lore wrote:A hit cannot be dodged or parried.


huh?

Dodge and Parry replace hits on the table, which is functionally the same thing.

Defense (in addition to increase dodge, parry, and miss chances) replaces crits with hits.

Resilience replace crits with a special type of hit that will trigger affects that trigger on crits.

I see no reason why resilience would require a second roll.

edit- This would be easy enough to test, and any test proving a second roll occurs would be pretty big news, so the lack of any evidence of such suggests to me that there is no second roll.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 1:10 pm

They "replace" hits on the table, yeah, but that just means that spot isn't a hit anymore. "Hit" never enters into the equation. The system rolls a 20 or whatever, and goes "Okay that's a dodge" and sends out the results. It's not a "Okay, it would be a hit, but he's got this much dodge, so it's a dodge instead." Were resilience to just reduce the chance to be crit in the way the defense does, the system would look at the attack table, go "Okay, that's a hit" with no heed whatsoever as to why it's a hit and not a crit.

The second roll is only for resilience, much like there's a second roll with spells purely for resistance-based resists.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu May 31, 2007 1:11 pm

Is there any evidence that resilience doesn't simply work like defense, turning crit into hit on the attack table? I don't see any reason why there should be a 2nd roll involved on any special mechanic, but if there's evidence to the contrary I'm opeen to hearing it.
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Postby Lore » Thu May 31, 2007 1:13 pm

Dorvan wrote:Is there any evidence that resilience doesn't simply work like defense, turning crit into hit on the attack table? I don't see any reason why there should be a 2nd roll involved on any special mechanic, but if there's evidence to the contrary I'm opeen to hearing it.


The fact that the system still knows it would have been a crit (so that flurry, enrage, etc can proc) means it would have to have been determined as a crit first, and then the outcome changed afterward.
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