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New with 2.1

Postby Nikolaos » Wed May 23, 2007 1:28 am

Last edited by Nikolaos on Wed May 23, 2007 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thels » Wed May 23, 2007 4:37 am

Indeed. Nice to match with your Righteous set for 5 man tanking. Any idea where it drops?
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Postby Nikolaos » Wed May 23, 2007 4:50 am

Can't find any info right now, but it's with some new heroic loot like
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32073

which is apprantly from heroic sethek, so possible from there or another?
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yah

Postby Mavrix » Wed May 23, 2007 5:48 am

At least 2 new bosses were added to the 5 man dungeons (this should mean new loot available from both regular and heroic modes).
SH and Mana Tombs are the two places with new bosses that I know about, but there may be others as well.
If necessity is the mother of invention, laziness must be the father.

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http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n&n=Mavrix
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Postby Thels » Wed May 23, 2007 5:54 am

More bosses = More loot & more badges while less boring.

Yes please.
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Postby Nikolaos » Wed May 23, 2007 1:57 pm

BoP tanking boots made by BS apprantly added to Wowhead and a Epic tankadin BoE belt from BS.
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Postby Jaspr » Wed May 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Boots of the Righteous Path dropped off Kargath Bladefist for me today, Heroic Mode.


either loot tables were swapped/rearranged, or I just lucked out with a one in a million drop
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 23, 2007 6:11 pm

I just checked out those Red Havoc Boots (blacksmithing BoP).

They're tasty for crush removal, but yeah, they aren't much chop for avoidance, I'd put them as inferior to the blue Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves for that - and definitely worse than the Boots of Elusion :(
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Postby Aergis » Wed May 23, 2007 6:22 pm

When you get to the harder hitting stuff, predictable mitigation far outweighs avoidance.

I don't mean have 0% dodge. But keeping a decent dodge while uping armor / stam / blockvalue helps tremendously on gruul / mag / maulgar. Can't say for further, as I haven't been, but I'd assume that in 25 mans where you have the healers to keep you up ( so long as they know how much to heal you ) the same would hold true.

Think of it like a graph. It's better to flatten the damage curve than make it even more u-shaped min/max ( min = dodge, max = hardest hit ).

At which point these boots are very very nice, above elusion.

Edit for example.

I'm planning on switching to farstrider defender cloak when A. I get enough badges again and B. when I get curator's pants.

I gain enough avoidance from the wrynn dynsasty legs to be able to take off devilshark cape, and put 120 armor enchant instead of 12 dodge and remain uncrushable.

By swapping, i'd gain:
559 armor
1 stam lol
9 block val

at the cost of
12 dodge rating ( the enchant )
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 23, 2007 6:52 pm

Aergis wrote:When you get to the harder hitting stuff, predictable mitigation far outweighs avoidance.


Yes, and the Red Havoc Boots are bad for that too. Block Value gets worse and worse as mob damage scales up and up. As such your itemization point expenditure gets higher and higher to maintain the same percentile mitigation.

Joannadark was kind enough to crunch the maths for that. Incidentally, that maths indicated that avoidance outweighed mitigation when you got to harder hitting stuff, not the other way around - look at the incoming DPS and survival time counters from Joannadark's crunching. Avoidance beats out Mitigation, for scalability and raw survival, for the same expenditure of itemization points.

Basically, unless someone's mad enough to go for both Blacksmithing and Engineering, the difference between Red Havoc / Boots of Elusion isn't enough to justify going Blacksmithing for those as opposed to going Engineering for the Poultryizer and the Tankatronic.
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Postby Aergis » Wed May 23, 2007 7:36 pm

Yes, and the Red Havoc Boots are bad for that too.


I tend to disagree. Tradeoffs:

Boots of elusion:
38 dodge ( 2.1% )

Red Havoc:
9 defense ( 3.6 skill ) * .04 miss / dodge / parry = 0.43% avoidance ( not counting block )
25 block ( 3.1% )
108 armor
15 stamina
30 block val

So you'd make up 0.43% of the pure damage avoidance anyway, losing 1.6% dodge. You retain the uncrushable status if you had with elusion from the extra block ( rest gets pushed off any how ). But you gain 150 hp, 108 armor and 30 block val.

I'd upgrade that.


Basically, unless someone's mad enough to go for both Blacksmithing and Engineering


That might be me soon... Enchanting isn't doing crap for me, I hardly even have any good patterns. But also, I don't imagine this is the ONLY bop blacksmithing drop... It just happens to be the first one we have seen so far. :lol:
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Postby Aergis » Wed May 23, 2007 7:59 pm

Btw, Joanna is an amazing theorist, but in the thread you mention where avoidance > mitigation on higher end bosses, I believe her math is flawed.

She treats avoidance as a damage spreader over time. While conceptually that may be true, statistacally it is not. The boss will attack at X.X speed, regardless of how high your dodge / miss / parry is. While X% dodge conceptually reduces the amount of time between attacks when thinking about damage taken, it only holds true if you have in infinte timeline. Here we don't, we either die or win the fight. In the smaller period of time, there is alot more variation going on, like getting hit 3 times in a row, dodging twice, etc.

For fun, I threw my stats into the tanking simulator ( I have elusion boots ) against Maulgar preset.

17k hp
16000 armor
10.65 miss
20.5 dodge
15.5 parry
20.5 block
350 block val

and got this over a 50 fight sample :
-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 2.39 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1259.85
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%


I "swapped" to red havoc, adding 108 armor, 15 stam, 30 block val at the cost of 1.6% dodge and got this over 50 fight sample:

-----------------------------------
Avg length of fight : 2.41 minutes.
Avg incoming dps : 1241.3
-----------------------------------
Spike death : 0%
OOM death: 100%




I ran it a few times, both setups. Same results : Very small increase in time till death and very small decrease in dtps. Not a huge upgrade, but one none the less. It also creates a flatter distribution of damage with less spike by a tiny amount, but easier to heal nonetheless. This is afterall looking at a single item upgrade / sidegrade.
Last edited by Aergis on Wed May 23, 2007 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lore » Wed May 23, 2007 8:04 pm

As I mentioned in the other thread, the Red Havoc boots pattern is a trash drop in Tempest Keep. Furthermore, it's a BoE pattern, and doesn't require raid mats, so it'll most likely start popping up on the auction house from guilds that get a pattern but no tanking blacksmiths.
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Postby Everlight » Wed May 23, 2007 8:14 pm

Aergis wrote:I ran it a few times, both setups. Same results : Very small increase in time till death and very small decrease in dtps. Not a huge upgrade, but one none the less. It also creates a flatter distribution of damage with less spike by a tiny amount, but easier to heal nonetheless. This is afterall looking at a single item upgrade / sidegrade.


Now try and do the same thing, keeping the Elusion and putting on a Tankatronic Goggles and Poultryizer instead....

My point is, the Red Havoc Boots represent a minimal, arguably worse sidegrade than the Boots of Elusion, and force someone down a Blacksmithing path, where the person could have gone Engineering and had both a Tankatronic Goggles and a Gnomish Poultryizer.

For such a small variation, you'll need to use a much larger sample size than just 50 run a few times. I used 200, and came out with the exact opposite result.

As for the spikiness of distribution, this is something I've addressed here; http://zentanking.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... eally.html

The standard deviation of incoming damage only increases with avoidance up to 50%. From that point it goes down again, so once you have enough avoidance your incoming damage actually becomes smoother by adding more.
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Postby Jaspr » Wed May 23, 2007 9:08 pm

epic BOE Protadin belt plans dropped on today's hydross kill

apparently it drops from more than one SSC mob
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