SoO BiS list

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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Jackinthegreen » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:00 am

Setokaiba wrote:
Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17


I registered here in 2009. I have been reading and keeping up with prot paladin mechanics since before I registered here. I know damn well which stats prot has valued since WotLK. Please don't try to be cutesy with me.

That said, yes, the agility neckpiece does provide better secondary stats than the strength one in general. It could be a gain as well for some sets especially if getting it would be a nice ilvl upgrade too. That does not make it a good idea to post it on a BIS list.

Simply said, putting it on our BIS list is a bad idea, even on these boards (which do get linked to from other sites every now and then), because it can give the wrong impression that we actually value agility. At that point it's opening up the list for ridicule because posting an agi piece on a strength tank's BIS list is, well, ridiculous unless one fully understands why it's being posted. Because of that agility I don't trust everyone who views it to know why it would be there despite months of data collection spanning several gigabytes showing how haste and mastery are great stats.

And do keep in mind dodge and parry aren't actually THAT far behind in the grand scheme of things. One of the analogies I've seen is that if haste is a 10 before reaching the cap, dodge and parry are between 8 and 9. Realistically the person saying that was likely skewing things a bit, but I'm pretty sure if haste was put at 1.75 then dodge and parry would be closer to .7 or .8 than .5. As Theck noted in that post, those weights were tweaked because it made AMR optimize more logically when it came to gemming sockets and such.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Setokaiba » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:41 am

Jackinthegreen wrote:
Setokaiba wrote:
Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17


I registered here in 2009. I have been reading and keeping up with prot paladin mechanics since before I registered here. I know damn well which stats prot has valued since WotLK. Please don't try to be cutesy with me.

That said, yes, the agility neckpiece does provide better secondary stats than the strength one in general. It could be a gain as well for some sets especially if getting it would be a nice ilvl upgrade too. That does not make it a good idea to post it on a BIS list.

Simply said, putting it on our BIS list is a bad idea, even on these boards (which do get linked to from other sites every now and then), because it can give the wrong impression that we actually value agility. At that point it's opening up the list for ridicule because posting an agi piece on a strength tank's BIS list is, well, ridiculous unless one fully understands why it's being posted. Because of that agility I don't trust everyone who views it to know why it would be there despite months of data collection spanning several gigabytes showing how haste and mastery are great stats.

And do keep in mind dodge and parry aren't actually THAT far behind in the grand scheme of things. One of the analogies I've seen is that if haste is a 10 before reaching the cap, dodge and parry are between 8 and 9. Realistically the person saying that was likely skewing things a bit, but I'm pretty sure if haste was put at 1.75 then dodge and parry would be closer to .7 or .8 than .5. As Theck noted in that post, those weights were tweaked because it made AMR optimize more logically when it came to gemming sockets and such.


Fair enough!
I still thing agi neck is one of the BIS. If you are worried about people "not understanding" why it's there...oh well, those people won't see heroic in the current content anyway
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:17 am

You should well more than enough haste on other pieces and through gems to meet the 50% mark without dipping into other pieces. Agility items have not been listed on any BIS list on this site in quite some time, before Cata I believe.

Agility gives no added benefit where as Strength does. Sure, minimal, but it's still there and better than agility.

Sure, you're right, it's not a 'bad' choice, but it's not necessarily a thought you should have as a "bis" piece at all. Stepping stone for ilvl purposes for stam...sure, I'll give you that.

The crit/mastery neck should probably be higher than the agility piece you're listing as crit probably has more of a benefit than agility.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby jere » Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Agility neutering happened mid Wrath if I remember correctly, so that's probably when they stopped appearing.

I would agree with leaving off agility items unless there is some large disparity in other stats. Using stat weights is hit or miss due to the subjectivity of them. There's not really any universal set of stat weights that are always correct. They are good for getting an idea, but not a 100% factor in comparison.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:56 am

Agility neutering happened in Cataclysm because we were taking Agi/Mastery gear over Str/avoidance.

That agi neck isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things, though note that strength is more valuable than parry is because it gives us AP. I'd probably still use Juggernaut's, simply because there are actual agility classes that can make better use of the agi neck. And there are better things to try and nab with coins than a low-itemization slot like neckwear.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Razeoflight » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:27 pm

wow such a debate about this obviously no decent prot pally would take an agi neck over any agi class

dont remember or dident know that there was a big agi thing going on in cata other then the 2 socket agi cloak from firelands tho

but at the end of the day when everything is said and done i will see how things will work out

i decided to aim for the 4 set instead of just the 2 set as well since it rly just seems to nice and comfty to give up on quality of life and all that
with that its gonna become a challenge to reach the haste cap again
and that neck could maybe be the difference between reaching haste cap yes or no so for that reason im just gonna put it on and ppl can make up there own mind about it

personally ill be fuckin having it after the hunter or rogue to play around with it

also added in a crit ring and the prot tier chest btw ;) should have included those from the start sorry about that suppose i should keep it up to date and tidy since meany ppl take interest in this topic so it seems
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Schroom » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:34 am

Setokaiba wrote:
Jackinthegreen wrote:Agility gear is excluded from these lists for reasons which should be fairly obvious. Yes, it is haste/mastery, which is great, but agility gives us no practical benefit. It takes 10,000 agility to give us 1% dodge before DR as Theck showed at http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08/up ... all-tanks/.

Sorry, I don't see any obvious reasons? Dodge and parry might as well be excluded from gear lists:D
Don't want to be rude today, but can you just read up on prot paladins first.

If we take stat weights as in this post - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33269#p755176

the strength value on the http://www.wowhead.com/item=105513 is only 1384*0.5 = 692.
It's not that huge, considering http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 has 2 best stats for us.
Of course it depends on what other gear you have, but unless you lack hit, I don't see this as bad choice?

oh, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=105407 total stat sum is greater by 17


first. the statweights Theck uses there aren't "the absolute truth" you should know that correct statweights vary from every character to the other and change completely with every schange you make to your gear.

also Theck values Stamina with 4. while I would probably aggre for 25m I can't disagree more for 10man.

the only encoutner I used more stam in 10m for the first pulls was the shamans, after killing it twice I stayed with "no stamina" trinkets for our 3rd kill yesterday and really no problem. On the contrary the + on heal (EF on all 4 of us) and the amazing DPS boost made the fight a lot easier.
the second one was Malkorok HM, for obvious reasons if you know how it is played on HM.

So more stamina (10m) for -> chees mechanics
-> learning a demanding fight

no other Boss has yet deamanded anything more than the HP I already have on my gear (ans back/chest enchant).

so I personally would value stamina with 1. just for your information to not use this numbers postet by theck as the absolute and only truth. (I guess he aggrees)


that being said I checked on both necks. used the same values you postet by Theck (except changing stmaina to 1 but this should not have any influence on the result)

Juggerneck

1384 str * 0.5 = 692
2076 sta *1 = 2076
950 hit *3 = 2850
877 mastery *0.9 = 789.3

--------> 6407.3

Immerseus Agi-neck

2076 sta *1 = 2076
922 haste *1.75= 1613.5
922 mastery *0.9 = 829.8

--------> 4519.3

and yes here we have the next problem. do we really value hit with 3? I mean if we have to much of it anyway?

you are probably going to reforge the hit on the jugger trinket, on the agi trinket you would keep everything untouched (if possible)
so let's reforge hit -> haste


1384 str * 0.5 = 692
2076 sta *1 = 2076
665 hit *3 = 1995
380 haste *1.75 = 665
877 mastery *0.9 = 789.3

--------> 6217.3

so it is still > the agi neck piece.

I am wearing http://www.wowhead.com/item=96916 atm with a haste socket and upgraded twice.

so:
1036 str *0.5 = 518
1675 sta *1 = 1675
704 dodge *0.5= 352
601 haste *1.75= 1051
423 exp *2.99= 1264.77

----------> 4860.77

even this is > the agi neck piece.

to be fair let's upgrade the agi neck piece twice as well

2236 sta *1 = 2236
994 haste *1.75= 1739.5
994 mastery *0.9 = 894.6

--------> 4870.1

so yeah congratulations you upgraded by 10 itembudget points... with a 31 ilvl difference.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:38 am

I think valuing hit as 3 is erroneous when looking at a single piece. In practice, you will almost always be able to reforge other gear to reach hit cap. A better estimate would be to pretend that hit is as valuable as your most valuable (non-expertise) secondary, which is haste. The reasoning being that the hit on that neck lets you reforge for more haste elsewhere rather than using those reforges to reach hit cap.

The only case where hit/exp would get full value is if you cannot reach the cap without that piece's contribution. Otherwise, I'd just treat hit and expertise on an item like haste for the purposes of value comparisons.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Schroom » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:35 am

yeah, sounds logical to me.
nonetheless this would still put the juggernaut piece @ 5219,8 ipoints
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Setokaiba » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:31 am

fair enough:) it's still not bad!
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Fetzie » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:25 pm

Right, it isn't bad. If it is higher item level than your current necklace, and it would otherwise get disenchanted, then why not pick it up. I wouldn't take it from a feral druid or WW monk though.
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby kamidak » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:08 pm

i feel my dps/dmg pretty low after 5.4... so should i consider malkorok trinket (CDR+STA) bis with the Thok trinket? instead iron juggernaut trinket?
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Re: SoO BiS list

Postby Darrak » Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:36 am

kamidak wrote:i feel my dps/dmg pretty low after 5.4... so should i consider malkorok trinket (CDR+STA) bis with the Thok trinket? instead iron juggernaut trinket?


iron juggernaut trinket is a shit, thok is far better alternative
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