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Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:50 pm
by AdaskoTheBeAsT
Hi,

as in subject - which one you will take as a haste loving tank?
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=98146/oxhorn-bladebreaker vs
http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=98147/tigerclaw-cape

What math says? that crit reforged for expertise will it still manage strong lead before parry dodge?

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:31 pm
by Darrak
i'll be picking dps one even though i srsly hate crit items :(

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:26 pm
by fuzzygeek
Both cloaks have mastery, and since it's not a matter of ilevel difference I'll certainly take Haste/Crit/(reforgedcrit) over Dodge/Parry.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:34 pm
by daishan
I'm leaning towards the dps cloak but don't forget the tank one has a 90 stam socket bonus vs a 60 strength one.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:45 am
by Calaban
daishan wrote:I'm leaning towards the dps cloak but don't forget the tank one has a 90 stam socket bonus vs a 60 strength one.


Since I'll get a 480 Haste gem into that badboy....who cares about the socket bonus ;-)

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:08 am
by daishan
Lol, well personally I try to take socket bonuses especially stam ones, and for the moment at least I can gem haste/exp in red sockets and just reforge out of exp to end up with the same amount of total haste.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:15 pm
by Zothor
Calaban wrote:
daishan wrote:I'm leaning towards the dps cloak but don't forget the tank one has a 90 stam socket bonus vs a 60 strength one.


Since I'll get a 480 Haste gem into that badboy....who cares about the socket bonus ;-)


Unless you're completely allergic to stam gems (in which case.... I am baffled) using the JC gems on secondary stats has always been a mistake this xpack. The way they were boosted, the primary stat gems are doubled, but the secondary stat gems are +160'd. I suspect this was based on a late design change to double the secondary stat gems from 160 to 320 to make them competitive, and JC was never fixed.

If you're using JC gems on haste, you're only gaining 320 total haste over the normal blue gems—a bonus of one gems worth. If you're using them on stam, you're gaining 480, a bonus of two gems worth.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:47 pm
by Fenrìr
I would be rather interested to see your armory, mate, simply because I think you've got a bigger hard-on for stam than Theck does and that's saying something, lol.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:22 pm
by Hawkslayer
Zothor wrote:
Calaban wrote:
daishan wrote:I'm leaning towards the dps cloak but don't forget the tank one has a 90 stam socket bonus vs a 60 strength one.


Since I'll get a 480 Haste gem into that badboy....who cares about the socket bonus ;-)


Unless you're completely allergic to stam gems (in which case.... I am baffled) using the JC gems on secondary stats has always been a mistake this xpack. The way they were boosted, the primary stat gems are doubled, but the secondary stat gems are +160'd. I suspect this was based on a late design change to double the secondary stat gems from 160 to 320 to make them competitive, and JC was never fixed.

If you're using JC gems on haste, you're only gaining 320 total haste over the normal blue gems—a bonus of one gems worth. If you're using them on stam, you're gaining 480, a bonus of two gems worth.



That's interesting. I've pretty much always used my JC gems on primary stats, but until you mentioned this, I had never noticed the shortcoming of JC secondary stat gems. Good to know.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:50 am
by lifeonmars
Zothor wrote:Unless you're completely allergic to stam gems (in which case.... I am baffled) using the JC gems on secondary stats has always been a mistake this xpack. The way they were boosted, the primary stat gems are doubled, but the secondary stat gems are +160'd. I suspect this was based on a late design change to double the secondary stat gems from 160 to 320 to make them competitive, and JC was never fixed.

If you're using JC gems on haste, you're only gaining 320 total haste over the normal blue gems—a bonus of one gems worth. If you're using them on stam, you're gaining 480, a bonus of two gems worth.


It's not an oversight at all, JC gems are correct. The total stat allocation on a JC gem has the following breakdown --

Total stat = (0.5 * Bonus Prof Amount) + Normal Gem Amount

The portion of the JC gem that accounts for the normal gem is double-itemized for secondaries. The prof bonus portion is not, consistent with the all the other prof stat bonuses.

Examples -

Stam: JC Gem = 480 = (0.5 * 480) + 240 (for example, prof bonus "Toughness" is 480)

Primary: JC Gem = 320 = (0.5 * 320) + 160 (for example, ring enchants are 2x160=320 priamries)

Secondary: JC Gem = 480 = (0.5 * 320) + 320

Basically the portion that reflects the prof bonus is itemized 1:1 secondary:primary, but the portion that reflects the opportunity cost of putting a normal gem in the socket is itemized 2:1 like a normal gem.

The oversight here is really that again, they've found a creative way to make blacksmithing mandatory min/max for any spec that prefers secondaries, because it gets double-itemization due to the sockets.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:07 pm
by Marilee
Looks like now that we can see the procs on the legendary, final version of these capes, the DPS one is even more attractive. (Assuming the effects go on the corresponding cloak automatically.)

melee DPS proc: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146195-flurry-of-xuen
tank proc: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146193-endurance-of-niuzao

That tank proc... I mean, we usually avoid trinkets with that kind of effect, right? The extra damage from the melee dps proc looks nice, though.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:38 pm
by Thels
lifeonmars wrote:
Zothor wrote:Unless you're completely allergic to stam gems (in which case.... I am baffled) using the JC gems on secondary stats has always been a mistake this xpack. The way they were boosted, the primary stat gems are doubled, but the secondary stat gems are +160'd. I suspect this was based on a late design change to double the secondary stat gems from 160 to 320 to make them competitive, and JC was never fixed.

If you're using JC gems on haste, you're only gaining 320 total haste over the normal blue gems—a bonus of one gems worth. If you're using them on stam, you're gaining 480, a bonus of two gems worth.


It's not an oversight at all, JC gems are correct. The total stat allocation on a JC gem has the following breakdown --

Total stat = (0.5 * Bonus Prof Amount) + Normal Gem Amount

The portion of the JC gem that accounts for the normal gem is double-itemized for secondaries. The prof bonus portion is not, consistent with the all the other prof stat bonuses.

Examples -

Stam: JC Gem = 480 = (0.5 * 480) + 240 (for example, prof bonus "Toughness" is 480)

Primary: JC Gem = 320 = (0.5 * 320) + 160 (for example, ring enchants are 2x160=320 priamries)

Secondary: JC Gem = 480 = (0.5 * 320) + 320

Basically the portion that reflects the prof bonus is itemized 1:1 secondary:primary, but the portion that reflects the opportunity cost of putting a normal gem in the socket is itemized 2:1 like a normal gem.

The oversight here is really that again, they've found a creative way to make blacksmithing mandatory min/max for any spec that prefers secondaries, because it gets double-itemization due to the sockets.


The problem is that you need to use a primary stat gem to get a primary bonus.

For example, for a Retribution Paladin to get 320 strength from JC, he has to use 2 strength gems already. He would normally use 2 haste gems in those slots (or perhaps strength/haste ones), so he actually benefits less from JC than most other professions.

Perhaps making it a little more visual. Let's say Haste is 0.6 times the value of Strength. One paladin has Enchanting, the other paladin has Jewelcrafting. Let's assume they have 2 red sockets in their gear (if they have less, it's even worse for JC).

The Enchanter would put 2x 80 Strength + 160 Haste in the sockets, and 2x 160 Strength on rings. The total itemization score would be 80 + 80 + 0.6*160 + 0.6*160 + 160 + 160 = 672.

The Jewelcrafter would put 2x 320 Strength in the sockets. The total itemization score would be 320 + 320 = 640. He's losing out because he is forced to use strength in those sockets, rather than haste.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:19 pm
by Darrak
Marilee wrote:Looks like now that we can see the procs on the legendary, final version of these capes, the DPS one is even more attractive. (Assuming the effects go on the corresponding cloak automatically.)

melee DPS proc: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146195-flurry-of-xuen
tank proc: http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146193-endurance-of-niuzao

That tank proc... I mean, we usually avoid trinkets with that kind of effect, right? The extra damage from the melee dps proc looks nice, though.


u kidding, right? the tank proc makes it the single most OP item in history

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:32 pm
by daishan
The tank proc is damn nice, maybe not the most OP item in history but up there.
I'm hoping we can apply the "enchant" to whichever cloak we want.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:22 am
by Worldie
My understanding of the legendary quest is that you get the legendary cloak first, and at the end of the chain you get to apply whatever enchant you like to it.

If you think of it, it kinda makes sense, else the Agi tanks would be forced to take the STR tank cloak just due to the op effect.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:58 am
by Sagara
There's an Agi tank cloak. I think the "apply your enchant to your cloak" thing does make sense, but I wouldn't consider the bearskin sold until we actually skinned it...

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:46 am
by Gruck
The legendary tank enchant seems to me like the ardent defender we used to have: A passive talent that saves your ass every once in a while. However, there might be some fights where this could become more than useful, but most of the time (from my experience) you either die anyways or have something else to use (e.g. new Sacred Shield and still ardent defender or course). If this would safe yourself in fights like Ra-Den (one hit kills), this would be really great. I guess this also depends on how much additional damage the dd enchant will bring...

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:53 am
by Sagara
Well, I do remember us being totally in love with the passive Ardent Defender, but I think it had something else that made it the awesome tool it was.

EDIT: Right - it had an heal included to counteract the deadly attack.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:08 am
by daishan
If I'm reading the new proc correctly it'll be even stronger than the old AD.

"FULLY absorbs the damage of one attack that would normally kill you."

To me that sounds like you could take a decapitate or high stacked massive attack to the face and loose zero hp, assuming that it was a big enough single hit to normally kill you.
Ofc on smaller hits it won't be quite as strong but still a 1 min cd!

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:16 am
by Ironshield
But smaller hits wouldn't normally kill you unless you were desperately reaching for Lay on Hands anyway. Except of course if that big hit only takes 99% of your health and then a melee hit comes after it it could be annoying.

I'm guessing we're going to need to get an addon or aura to track this ASAP, or nubsoaking avoidable big hits while this is on CD could cause some frustration.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:21 am
by Thels
Sagara wrote:Well, I do remember us being totally in love with the passive Ardent Defender, but I think it had something else that made it the awesome tool it was.

EDIT: Right - it had an heal included to counteract the deadly attack.


I don't think there's really that much difference between being brought to 1 hp and then healed up for a bit, or having the entire hit absorbed. It's the passive cheat death itself that makes it amazing.

And yeah, there is a "tanking" agi cloak (which is weird, since the Brewmaster/Guardian tier pieces don't even have "tanking" stats on them). I doubt they'll lock us out of certain legendary effects just because we picked different stats than what the itemization team deems best for us.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:27 am
by Sagara
Well, technically, they could say "the right cloak is available at the Quartermaster, only 10k!"
Low blow, but hey!

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:39 am
by Thels
Right now you can't get a second version of the cloak, can you?

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:44 am
by Worldie
You can if you sell your cloak, costs a few thousands gold.

You just can't have 2 cloaks at the same time, that's it, but they said they are considering fixing that in 5.4

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:58 am
by daishan
Thels wrote:I don't think there's really that much difference between being brought to 1 hp and then healed up for a bit, or having the entire hit absorbed. It's the passive cheat death itself that makes it amazing.


Definitely the cheat death that makes it amazing but on a fight with a nasty dot that ticks every 0.5 sec the absorb version looses some of its value as it'll only give you and your healers an extra 0.5 sec.
Where as on a boss that does occasional 800k single hit specials the absorb version becomes massively op.