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Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:18 am
by Fetzie
Or maybe the enchant will be an item you can buy (the first is a quest reward) so that you can choose which "enchant" to put on the cloak that you like best.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:49 am
by Gruck
daishan wrote:Definitely the cheat death that makes it amazing but on a fight with a nasty dot that ticks every 0.5 sec the absorb version looses some of its value as it'll only give you and your healers an extra 0.5 sec.
Where as on a boss that does occasional 800k single hit specials the absorb version becomes massively op.

You're right: It really depends on the encounter design or the design of the whole raid tier. If there will be several bosses with one-shot mechanics, it'll be worth taking. Do we already know if the damage enchant will scale as good as the meta gem does today?

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:40 am
by Fetzie
Gruck wrote:
daishan wrote:Definitely the cheat death that makes it amazing but on a fight with a nasty dot that ticks every 0.5 sec the absorb version looses some of its value as it'll only give you and your healers an extra 0.5 sec.
Where as on a boss that does occasional 800k single hit specials the absorb version becomes massively op.

You're right: It really depends on the encounter design or the design of the whole raid tier. If there will be several bosses with one-shot mechanics, it'll be worth taking. Do we already know if the damage enchant will scale as good as the meta gem does today?


Depends on the proc rate. It also scales with weapon damage, not pure attack power like the meta gem.

...and whether or not it procs Seal of Insight (if it does, then having six 50+k heals within two seconds would be awesome):)

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:18 am
by Ironshield
http://ptr.wowdb.com/spells/146193-endurance-of-niuzao
"...This effect has a 60 second cooldown"

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:26 am
by daishan
I think Fetzie was meaning what's the proc rate of the dps cloak.
If it's high enough we'll probably want the dps one for add fights.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:31 am
by Sagara
Oh, maybe even on solo fights. I'm guessing that unless you're a) pushing week 2 heroics or b) the weakest link in the group, you're not going to get much mileage off the tank enchant. Now the question is how much mileage you're willing to lose to get a nice DPS proc.

Also, it's going to be really interesting to see wether SoI procs off Xuen's proc.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:54 am
by Thorill
Sagara wrote:Well, technically, they could say "the right cloak is available at the Quartermaster, only 10k!"
Low blow, but hey!

Looking at mmo-champ today, it appears the legendary effect is tied to the tanking cloak only. http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/102245-qian-le-courage-of-niuzao

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:57 am
by Kelerei
Noticed this too: http://ptr.wowhead.com/search?q=date%3A2013-07-03

Seems like the upgrade is to the entire cloak, so those with the tanking cloak will get the tank effect, those with the DPS cloak will get the DPS effect... which really puts us tankadins between a rock and a hard place.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:20 am
by Thels
:(

I wonder how many Brewmasters and Guardians actually took the Dodge cloak.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:27 am
by Fenrìr
Unless there's some mechanic that requires a cheesing effect, I really don't see myself getting the tank one (unless they allow us to have two).

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:30 am
by Worldie
Honestly speaking, in heroic progress, it can happen that stuff goes wrong, and a healer dies or healers can't heal, and you take that blow that lands 0.1 seconds before the heal, and wipe.

Not having the cheat death effect on heroic progress, unless it's an EXTREMELY TIGHT dps race, is stupid, very stupid, and in fact selfish, as you show you care more for your e-peen on the meters rather than to doing your job.

Stop being obsessed with topping damage meters.

The reason for which you stack haste is that it increases Paladin survivability, and also has the side effect of increasing the DPS. If haste didn't increase your survivability, you'd be stacking MASTERY like warriors and dks, which does NOTHING for dps.

The main reason for which some tanks use the DPS meta instead of the tank one is that the tank one is RNG and thus you can't count on it. If it was a flat % damage reduction, you'd use it all the time.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:28 am
by Treck
Fenrìr wrote:Unless there's some mechanic that requires a cheesing effect, I really don't see myself getting the tank one (unless they allow us to have two).

1k haste (were gonna haste cap in SoO gear anyway)
or a lifesaver every 1 freaking minute...
Get your priorities as a tank straight tbh.

Maybe, just MAYBE after 3 months of farm i could be interested in taking the dps version, procc on the dps one doesnt seem to insane either.

The tank one lets you play incredibly recklessly as well before it proccs if you wanna do that.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:45 am
by Worldie
Sometimes I wish I had you in my friendlist treck!

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:54 am
by Treck
My Realid is on this forum :P

About the cloaks, I want to dig deeper on it a bit.
Tank cloak beeing able to procc once a min is incredibly overpowered for progress.
But so is the tank meta gem.
Its just relative to what you can choose.
We dont quite know how big of a dps increase the dps cloak procc will be, and sure the haste and useless crit will help do more dps.
If that procc stands for about 10% dps increase? then yeh sure I can see its arguable to use that cloak in certain situations if they allow us to have one of each at the same time.

We will have to wait untill its on PTR to see the full extent on it.
But they have constantly been nerfing passive lifesavers for tanks cause they are to good (old AD!?)
Purgatory seems to have been staying for a while, but only due to the fact that DKs are so weak compared to the other classes in terms of their Active mitigation.
Looking into new expansions, I wouldnt be suprised if this cloak keeps having its uses...

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:56 am
by Worldie
I'd not be surprised if both the legendary meta and the legendary cloak get a "wont work past level 90" affix when 6.0 is released.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:03 am
by fuzzygeek
Worldie wrote:Not having the cheat death effect on heroic progress, unless it's an EXTREMELY TIGHT dps race, is stupid, very stupid, and in fact selfish, as you show you care more for your e-peen on the meters rather than to doing your job.

Stop being obsessed with topping damage meters.


You've got an awfully narrow view, and accusing people of being selfish and DPS obsessed is starting to descend into ad hominem.

Increasing rDPS makes fights shorter and decreases the window in which things can go terribly wrong leading to raid wipes and death. to use your example, perhaps if rDPS was better the fight would have been over before you take that blow that lands 0.1 seconds before the heal, and would not have wiped in the first place. It is easy to come up with edge anecdotes that support either PoV. These anecdotes are pointless in a useful discussion.

If all we cared about was survivability then we'd be stacking stam -- as it is STILL the best survivability stat. We're not. Why? Because we're trading off stam for haste. Why? Is it just because of DPS epeen?

Maybe for some. They're missing the point. For me, the DPS increase is secondary to the ancillary benefits of haste. To wit: damage smoothing, shortening fights, and increasing SoL rHPS healing. If they completely removed the rDPS increase from haste and made crit do more DPS but less HP gen and SoL healing, I would still stick with haste because those are the secondary benefits I prioritize.

Not because of DPS, and not because of any kind of epeen waving as you're alleging. The increased DPS is ancillary to shortening fights.

I care about killing bosses, and there are more ways we can contribute to making a fight as easy as possible than being just a meat shield.

All that being said, this wrangling is stupid. Apparently we can have both cloaks, and can wear whichever is appropriate for our raid and progression level. The tanking proc will be a hell of a lot more useful for those doing week 2 heroics and 25H, just as gold plated insurance policies are more useful to those with higher risk lifestyles.

I'm going to have both cloaks, just as I have both metas, and I'll be wearing the tank meta and cloak and my stam trinkets during progression pulls to make the fights last as long as possible before I die, then I'm going to do everything I can to make the fights as short as possible as soon as we know how to kill it.

There are legitimate reasons for choosing either cloak. Demonizing one side or another is nonproductive and doesn't add to the conversation at all.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:30 am
by Sagara
Stating you want haste to help smoothness is a bit of a lie, though, as Stam remains the premier smoothing stat. And technically, the tank proc is nothing less than a nice 100k free health (number courtesy of MyAss mathematics) on top of your current total.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:02 pm
by Meloree
Greetings! I probably should have checked here, first, so crossposting from the 5.4 thread in General...

Assertion: The proc on the tank cloak is hilariously overpowered. So overpowered, in fact, that I contend that it's worth more DPS than the DPS cloak's stats and procs, even with the subpar itemization, in addition to being worth more survival than, roughly, anything that's ever been in the game before, barring 3.2 era Ardent Defender.

How is it worth DPS, you might ask? I contend that it is so hilariously good for raw survival that you could happily start reforging your stats into crit and come out ahead on survival AND dps over any other option.

Proof of assertion is left as an exercise for the reader. Because that is WAY easier on me.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:32 pm
by fuzzygeek
Sagara wrote:Stating you want haste to help smoothness is a bit of a lie, though, as Stam remains the premier smoothing stat. And technically, the tank proc is nothing less than a nice 100k free health (number courtesy of MyAss mathematics) on top of your current total.


It is not a lie. In my opinion the additional benefits from haste are worth the reduced smoothing efficacy. Does haste help with damage smoothing? Yes? Is the delta between stacking haste and stacking stam worth the additional raid benefits? I would argue it is.

Part of my dislike of the tank proc is that it is a process and not controllable. I don't know that you can precisely compare it to AD since it is not an at-will cool down. If it were I think you would see much less discussion comparing the merits because it would be obvious.

Likewise the tanking meta. Why are we so willing to trade off a giant chunk of stam and 2% damage redux for pure DPS with no ancillary benefits? Would. We be so willing if the metagem was a clicky?

Edit: now that I think about it, I've been thinking about it wrong. It is like AD, only it is ALWAYS active unless on CD. Hmm.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:39 pm
by Sagara
Just wanted to clear up that the choice of haste is a sacrifice of smoothness. But considering I'm also haste stacking to a point, I'd agree it's worth the tradeoff :-p

Be careful not to compare the gem and the cloak. The gem is utterly random, and as such is typically rubbish in smoothness - like treck mentionned, the dps meta was insane while the tanking one just average at best.

To the cloak, I think you're mistaking its strenght for a weakness - it's like an always-on cooldown, basically. You don't control it, because you don't HAVE TO - it'll aways trigger when you need it - i.e. when you die.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:53 pm
by fuzzygeek
Sagara wrote:Just wanted to clear up that the choice of haste is a sacrifice of smoothness.


I'm still not sure why you would call it a lie. Choosing haste over Dodge/Parry is choosing damage smoothing. Choosing stam is even more smoothing. Please point out the lie to me.

WRT activation: You're right; I edited my post before seeing yours (was on my phone traveling to California for the holidays).

The degrees of the comparison between the cloak and gem aren't equivalent, to be sure. But the philosophical approach is: we're trading off pure tanky things (stam and damage redux) for pure DPS. There's not even a hint of ancillary benefits. Why?

I still wear the tank meta on progression pulls because every little bit helps up front, but it's certainly one of the first things I swap back once tank death is no longer a concern.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:30 am
by Thels
Has it been assured that we can have both cloaks? I'm almost done with farming the runestones after over 2 months (yay RNG), so I'm pretty close to picking my cloak. Naturally, without the upgrade, I prefer the Haste one, but I don't want to lock myself out of the Tanking one.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:09 am
by Worldie
You can get a new epic cloak right now for 10k gold, so I don't see why you shouldnt be able to get a new legendary one.

Also, while the epic cloak are Unique (been also said it might be removed in 5.4), the legendary cloaks are not.

Re: Oxhorn Bladebreaker vs Tigerclaw Cape

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:12 am
by Thels
Ah, didn't know you could switch them. DPS cloak it is for now, and we'll see again when 5.4 is here. :)