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Vengeance . Armor and Haste

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Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby Razeoflight » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:52 am

Hello fellow tankadins !

I have been researching and thinking about vengeance recently , i feel i have a good grasp about it but id like to double check and there are somethings that i still dont know.

Here is what i currently know.
The vengeance i gain does not get diminished by Cooldowns , SotR , Weakend Blows.
Miss , Dodge and parry does not give me a new bulk of vengeance instead of refreshes my old vengeance for a previous hit.
I gain 2% vengeance from melee hits taken.

As for the vengeance cap , its capped at player max health so i would have to gain lets say 600k AP if i had 600k HP raid buffed to cap it which is sort of impossible in my eyes. so u can say there is no cap.

Now im pretty sure thats spot on but please correct me if im wrong.

The thing that im unclear about is if the game calculates the vengeance i gain from lets say a melee hit the boss does does it diminish from the armor i have.
Aka whilst the tier progresses i gain more gear and more armor and gain less and less vengeance.

Also how about spell damage ? i have read that u gain more vengeance form spell damage then physical damage aka 5% give or take from spell and 2 % from melee is this true ?


Hope u all can shine some light on this topic for me :)


I would also like to ask people about haste.
Now i know that its still very strong and for sure my preferred playing style as yours most likely.
Currently i sit at about 9961 haste rating which results in a 3.65 CS and 4.86 J now i have been noticing especially on a pull where we bloodlust.
My Darkmist vortex also procs on the pull that my CS goes under 3 sec and it feels rather odd at that point TBH.

I have been thinking for this tier eventually id like to make a nice balance between haste and mastery.
Now when to make the transition from control/haste to control/balance that is what i have been thinking about.
Personally i think it would be great to have that 3 sec CS again and wait for that to happen but my offtank has also been throwing stop at 3.5 on the table.

Going after the 3 sec CS for this tier might be a bit harsh and i might never reach it but still.

Would like to hear you thoughts on the matter ;)


Thanks a lot for the feedback in advanced and keep up the good work at Maintankadin :D


Gtz Raze
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Re: Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby Vayacondios » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:50 pm

Armor does not nerf your veng, veng is off of the damage done to you before mitigation.

Never heard about the spell damage Vs. melee damage, I was under the impression that it didn't matter.

For normals I don't think mastery Vs. Haste matters much, four heroics deep I'm seeing mastery being very powerful on a lot of fights. Timing SoTR is so OP for many boss mechanics. I even threw my t14 4pc back on for a fight or two to get the free 10% on SoTR. I've been planing on getting CS to about 3.5 then going mastery, 3.5 sec CD seems to be a nice place for HP gen. 3sec CD on CS prolly CAN be done in this tier, but it seems unneeded.
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Re: Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby Jadhzia » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:13 am

Razeoflight wrote:Miss , Dodge and parry does not give me a new bulk of vengeance instead of refreshes my old vengeance for a previous hit.


The Vengeance buff factors in whatever damage you took in the last 20s, so its value fluctuates a lot. As far as I know, it is never "refreshed", it is only recalculated all the time with incoming damage.

And Dodge and Parry do give Vengeance, since it's calculated from incoming damage (before mitigation, before avoidance). At least that's what I see when I have a streak of dodge with my Druid or my Monk and my Vengeance is still going up (it's less obvious with my Paladin as my avoidance is low). There was a hotfix about that, at the beginning of MoP, IIRC (something about using average damage avoided for Vengeance).

Razeoflight wrote:The thing that im unclear about is if the game calculates the vengeance i gain from lets say a melee hit the boss does does it diminish from the armor i have.
Aka whilst the tier progresses i gain more gear and more armor and gain less and less vengeance.


Armor is mitigation, so it isn't used for Vengeance calculation purpose.

Razeoflight wrote:Also how about spell damage ? i have read that u gain more vengeance form spell damage then physical damage aka 5% give or take from spell and 2 % from melee is this true ?


I've never heard of any distinction between melee and magical damage, and that would make the tooltip wrong. Maybe someone could confirm that the tooltip is correct?
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Re: Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby daishan » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:38 am

I remember reading a blue post saying about spell damage giving 5% veng and melee 2% but I can't find it now and I'm not even certain it went live like that.

Razeoflight wrote:As for the vengeance cap , its capped at player max health so i would have to gain lets say 600k AP if i had 600k HP raid buffed to cap it which is sort of impossible in my eyes. so u can say there is no cap.


It's rare and not many tanks will ever hit the cap, but it is possible, I run a low stam build and on most if not all of my Empress hm kills I've briefly hit the cap during the add phase, tanking 6 Windblades.
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Re: Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby theckhd » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:44 am

Jadhzia wrote:The Vengeance buff factors in whatever damage you took in the last 20s, so its value fluctuates a lot. As far as I know, it is never "refreshed", it is only recalculated all the time with incoming damage.

And Dodge and Parry do give Vengeance, since it's calculated from incoming damage (before mitigation, before avoidance). At least that's what I see when I have a streak of dodge with my Druid or my Monk and my Vengeance is still going up (it's less obvious with my Paladin as my avoidance is low). There was a hotfix about that, at the beginning of MoP, IIRC (something about using average damage avoided for Vengeance).

That's essentially correct. Dodge and parry now just give Vengeance based on the average damage of the boss swing you avoid. The hotfix in question is here. And mitigation effects (Weakened Blows, Armor, Sanctuary, SotR, etc.) are ignored.

There's also a ramp-up mechanic, which I've elaborated on before:
Theck wrote:It's not really a "smoothing" mechanic. What you're describing is the ramp-up changes, summarized here. Basically, it tries to make sure that on each attack, you're at least brought up to 50% of the expected steady-state value. For example, if you take a 500k melee attack from a boss with a 1.5-second swing timer, the expected steady-state vengeance value is 40% of 500k/1.5, or 133k. Thus, if you're not already at half of that value, it will automatically bring you up to half of it (so 67k). This is the improved ramping mechanism at work - in the original version, that 500k melee attack would only give you 0.02*500k=10k Vengeance if you were starting from zero.

Otherwise, the calculation is still as described by the blues:
Vengeance = 0.02*DamageOfMeleeAttack + OldVengeance*OldVengeanceTimeRemaining/20

The only difference is that if DamageOfMeleeAttack is high enough, it'll trigger the ramp-up mechanic and grant you a lot of Vengeance.


Note that it should be 1.8% of damage rather than 2%, as it was nerfed at the same time.


Jadhzia wrote:I've never heard of any distinction between melee and magical damage, and that would make the tooltip wrong. Maybe someone could confirm that the tooltip is correct?

There used to be a difference (initially it was 2% spell and 5% melee, I believe). The melee portion was nerfed somewhere along the way. I think that they're now both 1.8%, but I haven't found a reliable (i.e. blue) source for that in a quick google search.
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Re: Vengeance . Armor and Haste

Postby Razeoflight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:49 pm

aite thnx for clearing that up for me guys , appreciate it ;)
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