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How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:51 pm
by DisRuptive1
Queued into Terrace of Endless Spring as DPS (Retribution Paladin). Raid wipes to 3rd boss (Lei Shi) because tanks die. I switch over to my tank gear/spec as backup. Raid kills 3rd boss, I stay in tank spec for 4th boss (Sha of Fear). Sha dies. I use Elder Charm and get Kil'Rak, a one-handed tank/dps sword.

Either this is one of those issues where bonus loot is not awarding the right loot or the bonus roll system looks at your spec rather than at the role you chose in queuing for LFR. For those of us that are trying to get upgrades in LFR, switching over to a Ret spec for a fight can help us get gear that has Haste on them.

If the system checks your spec during the roll rather than the spec you had on the pull, you could even use this in normals and heroics to win a different set of gear by respeccing after the boss dies and using your Elder charm.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:06 pm
by Morwo
Elder Charm loot engine check's your specc/role in that moment you press the coin-button. as in other post around here there are already hints to macros to respecc after a boss dies, and before flip the elder coin.

/usetalents [spec:1] 2; [spec:2] 1

Very nice if you aim for some haste gear.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:47 pm
by fuzzygeek
It is fairly commonplace for people to queue dps for fast queues and sit in tank spec doing horrible dps in lfr. It is irritating, but so is lfr as a whole ...

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:06 pm
by DisRuptive1
It was accidental on my part to queue as DPS. I queue for 5-mans as DPS since I don't need tank gear any more and don't want to feel bad about taking loot from other plate dps that I get queued with. Queue times are infinitely longer but I usually work on my farm or go do some dailies while I wait.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:55 pm
by theckhd
DisRuptive1 wrote:Either this is one of those issues where bonus loot is not awarding the right loot or the bonus roll system looks at your spec rather than at the role you chose in queuing for LFR.

It looks at your spec, and only at your spec, for both regular and bonus rolls. That's how it's supposed to work. I've already run entire LFRs as a "tank" role while being ret spec because there was no more tank gear I needed (and you can 1-tank the vast majority of LFR).

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:55 pm
by Morwo
i tank on my 10man raid in heroic mode, and respec to use my coin in ret gear also. not only lfr : )

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:26 pm
by theckhd
I never said it was only in LFR. I do the same, as some of the BiS heroic items are only on the ret bonus roll table.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:36 pm
by fuzzygeek
Is it safe to assume that if you filter the Dungeon Journal by Paladin->Protection, that all matching items are available via Coin?

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:04 am
by theckhd
I believe so. I don't have any sort of proof of that, but that's what it seems like. I haven't seen any violation of that rule in my coin rolls so far.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:24 pm
by fuzzygeek
Ah; I thought I'd seen some hit/xpt pieces through the filter and thought the devs had actually tagged pieces we want as being spec-appropriate, but now that I check that's not the case. Guess I can utilize secondary sepc as ret now.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:59 pm
by theckhd
fuzzygeek wrote:Ah; I thought I'd seen some hit/xpt pieces through the filter and thought the devs had actually tagged pieces we want as being spec-appropriate, but now that I check that's not the case. Guess I can utilize secondary sepc as ret now.

There are a few hit/exp pieces that are tagged as prot. Neck from Protectors of the Endless, for example. Basically it seems that any item with a combination of two of (dodge/parry/mastery/hit/exp) should end up on the prot gear list. Any item with haste or crit shouldn't.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:25 am
by Treck
They also added the Darkmist vortex (str with haste procc from Lei Shi) to the prot table, so it seems devs are changing the loot tables a bit to have us not have to swap speccs for proper loot.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:54 am
by Ironshield
I don't suppose anyone has made a list of which bosses to use your coin in which spec yet? Eg, boss - spec - loot, spec - loot.

I tried looking at a list of which ret gear is good for us (ie bits sans crit) but it needs some work. And it's not easy doing so on a phone :( hopefully will find some PC work avoidance time soonish. But if anyone has something similar I for one would love to have a look :)

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:10 am
by Sagara
It's failry easy all in all:

IF item has Intellect,
THEN not avalaible for prot, not available for ret;

ELSE IF item from Ret Tier set,
THEN not avalaible for prot, available for ret;

ELSE IF item from Prot Tier set,
THEN available for prot, not available for ret;

ELSE IF item has Crit or Haste,
THEN not avalaible for prot, available for ret;

ELSE IF item has Parry or Dodge
THEN available for prot, not available for ret;

ELSE available for prot, available for ret.

With that + Nika's list, you should be golden.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:16 am
by daishan
The only exception I've noticed been the lei Shi strength trinket with a haste proc been on the prot loot table in the dungeon journal. I'm not sure if Treckie was saying it's been changed to prot gear or not but I seem to remember it been there from week one of TES.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:50 am
by theckhd
Treck wrote:They also added the Darkmist vortex (str with haste procc from Lei Shi) to the prot table, so it seems devs are changing the loot tables a bit to have us not have to swap speccs for proper loot.

I don't think they changed that, as far as I know it's been that way since Terrace was released. I think it's also probably a mistake, not intentional. They treat STR as a tanking stat, so that trinket is sort of an avoidance trinket. I suspect that the algorithm they use doesn't even look at the proc, just the passive stats (though one would assume they'd hand-check those afterward, but maybe not?).

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:53 am
by theckhd
Ironshield wrote:I don't suppose anyone has made a list of which bosses to use your coin in which spec yet? Eg, boss - spec - loot, spec - loot.

I have, but it's specific to my particular gearing situation. Presumably any such list you would make would be similar. For example, since we're killing Tayak on heroic, I'm using a coin on him, but switching to ret spec first since the items I want are both available to retribution (Ring and Belt).

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:51 am
by Ironshield
This is what I was after :) I'm assuming the items listed as DPS are on the Ret loot table, and those listed as Tank are Prot. If anyone knows of any exceptions, please point it out and I'll add a note. I've included the DPS only (ie - has crit on it) items so you know where Ret rolling might be a worse bet. This is only really useful if you have next to no raid gear. Which is when gear lists are the most intimidating.

Mogu'shan Vaults
The Stone Guard
[Beads of the Mogu'shi] -> Tank necklace
[Star-Stealer Waistguard] -> Tank plate belt

[Jasper Clawfeet] -> DPS ONLY plate boots
-----------------------------
Feng the Accursed
[Bracers of Six Oxen] -> Tank plate bracers
[Sollerets of Spirit Splitting] -> Tank plate boots

[Bonded Soul Bracers] -> Strength plate bracers
[Soulgrasp Choker] -> Strength DPS necklace

[Cloak of Peacock Feathers] -> Strength DPS ONLY cloak
[Nullification Greathelm] -> DPS ONLY plate helm
-----------------------------
The Spirit Kings
[Steelskin, Qiang's Impervious Shield] -> Tank shield
[Shoulderguards of the Unflanked] -> Tank plate shoulders

[Breastplate of the Kings' Guard] -> DPS plate chest
-----------------------------
Elegon
[Band of Bursting Novas] -> Tank ring
[Vial of Dragon's Blood] -> Tank trinket
[Elegion, the Fanged Crescent] -> Strength one-handed axe

[Starcrusher Gauntlets] -> DPS plate gloves

[Starshatter] -> Strength two-handed sword
-----------------------------
Will of the Emperor
[Chestguard of Eternal Vigilance] -> Tank plate chest

[Jang-xi's Devastating Legplates] -> DPS plate leggings
[Lei Shin's Final Orders] -> Strength trinket

Heart of Fear
Imperial Vizier Zor'lok
[Articulated Legplates] -> Tank plate leggings
[Vizier's Ruby Signet] -> Tank ring

[Hisek's Chrysanthemum Cape] -> Strength DPS cloak

[Warbelt of Sealed Pods] -> DPS ONLY plate belt
-----------------------------
Blade Lord Ta'yak
[Windblade Talons] -> Tank plate gloves

[Waistplate of Overwhelming Assault] -> DPS plate belt
[Ring of the Bladed Tempest] -> Strength DPS ring
-----------------------------
Garalon
[Garalon's Hollow Skull] -> Tank plate helm
[Ring of the Shattered Shell] -> Tank ring

[Garalon's Graven Carapace] -> DPS ONLY plate chest
[Necklace of Congealed Weaknesses] -> Strength DPS ONLY necklace
-----------------------------
Wind Lord Mel'jarak
[Gauntlets of the Shadowy Conqueror] -> Armor token
[Cloak of Raining Blades] -> Tank cloak

[Impaling Treads] -> DPS plate boots
-----------------------------
Amber-Shaper Un'sok
[Scimitar of Seven Stars] -> Strength one-handed sword
[Leggings of the Shadowy Conqueror] -> Armor token

[Shoulderpads of Misshapen Life] -> DPS ONLY plate shoulders
-----------------------------
Grand Empress Shek'zeer
[Chest of the Shadowy Conqueror] -> Armor token

Terrace of Endless Spring
Protectors of the Endless
[Deepwater Greatboots] -> Tank plate boots
[Kaolan's Withering Necklace] -> Tank necklace

[Bracers of Defiled Earth] -> DPS plate bracers
[Shackle of Eversparks] -> Strength necklace
-----------------------------
Tsulong
[Grasps of Serpentine Might] -> Tank plate gloves
[Daybreak Drape] -> Tank cloak
[Stuff of Nightmares] -> Tank trinket
[Protector's Girdle of Endless Spring] -> Tank plate belt

[Dread Shadow Ring] -> Strength DPS ONLY ring
[Patroller's Girdle of Endless Spring] -> Strength DPS ONLY plate belt
-----------------------------
Lei Shi
[Cuirass of the Animated Protector] -> Tank plate chest
[Protector's Girdle of Endless Spring] -> Tank plate belt

[Shoulders of the Shadowy Conqueror] -> Armor token

[Darkmist Vortex] -> Strength DPS trinket - In Tank table

[Patroller's Girdle of Endless Spring] -> Strength DPS ONLY plate belt
-----------------------------
Sha of Fear
[Kilrak, Jaws of Terror] -> Strength one-handed sword
[Helm of the Shadowy Conqueror] -> Armor token

[Shin'ka, Execution of Dominion] -> DPS ONLY Strength two-handed axe

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:03 pm
by Treck
theckhd wrote:I don't think they changed that, as far as I know it's been that way since Terrace was released. I think it's also probably a mistake, not intentional. They treat STR as a tanking stat, so that trinket is sort of an avoidance trinket. I suspect that the algorithm they use doesn't even look at the proc, just the passive stats (though one would assume they'd hand-check those afterward, but maybe not?).

My bad then, didnt remember seeing it on the loot table before so thought they "changed" it.
In any case its LFR, most of the items arnt going to be that great of an upgrade anyway (blues with good itemization + upgrade is almost as good anyway)
As for raids if you wanna coin on those bosses, just make sure you stay alive and change specc when boss dies before you coin.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm
by theckhd
Ironshield wrote:This is what I was after :) I'm assuming the items listed as DPS are on the Ret loot table, and those listed as Tank are Prot.

You could just check the Dungeon Journal in-game, and filter by spec.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:09 am
by Ironshield
theckhd wrote:
Ironshield wrote:This is what I was after :) I'm assuming the items listed as DPS are on the Ret loot table, and those listed as Tank are Prot.

You could just check the Dungeon Journal in-game, and filter by spec.

That is true, unless, like me, you tend to panic when a window pops up with a timer saying MAKE A DECISION!! (yeah I know) :) So I like to have lists I can peruse at my leisure while WABing* at work.

Speaking of which, I know Wowpedia has taken a dump of the Dungeon Journal (which is useful), but does anyone know of a dungeon journal out of game which is filterable?

* - W.A.B - Work Avoidance Behaviour.

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:27 am
by lythac
Wasn't aware you can use multiple tokens on the same boss in LFR by repeated queuing.

merritsa wrote:@Ghostcrawler Using multiple charms on the same boss per week in lfr (by repeated q'ing) intended or bug? Same chance every time?
Ghostcrawler wrote:@merritsa we're fine with it. You'll eventually run out of charms. Same chance every time.
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status ... 2186374144

Re: How to exploit the bonus loot system

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:01 pm
by Thels
A quick way to see what items are available in total is to set the filter to Warrior (All Specs). It filters out the useless Holy gear. ;)

And the Dungeon Journal indeed separates like that.

All plate/cloaks/amulets/rings/trinkets/onehanded swords/onehanded maces/onehanded axes/shields that don't have Strength/Agility/Hit/Expertise/Dodge/Parry are available on the Holy loot table, with the exception of Stamina trinkets.

All plate/cloaks/amulets/rings/trinkets/onehanded swords/onehanded maces/onehanded axes/shields that don't have Agility/Intellect/Spirit/Crit/Haste are available on the Protection loot table.

All plate/cloaks/amulets/rings/trinkets/twohanded swords/twohanded maces/twohanded axes that don't have Agility/Intellect/Spirit/Dodge/Parry are available on the Retribution loot table, with the exception of Stamina trinkets.

Stamina trinkets are the odd ones out. On all items they are included as extra, except on trinkets, where they are the chosen stat.