Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby xstratax » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:31 am

Colossus is actually 8k bubble, not 7.5k, the tooltips dont match the proc (in game it will say 8000, check it).

I prefer Colossus myself, I know when it procs (which feels quite frequently) it is guaranteed mitigation against all types of damage, and helps prolong my SS absorbs a tiny amount. River's Song just is too much RNG for my taste. Windsong could be good, but I still prefer mitigation to Haste/Mastery/Crit (yuck). I dont even consider Dancing Steel, really expensive for limited survival gains (Im all about survival atm)
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:59 am

Actually, Dancing Steel is generally superior to River's Song for us. I'm not sure why any paladin would use RS.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lightvein » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:58 pm

theckhd wrote:Actually, Dancing Steel is generally superior to River's Song for us. I'm not sure why any paladin would use RS.


What enchant would you recommend of all the ones mentioned?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby torrasque » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:35 pm

Lightvein wrote:
theckhd wrote:Actually, Dancing Steel is generally superior to River's Song for us. I'm not sure why any paladin would use RS.


What enchant would you recommend of all the ones mentioned?

was wondering this myself. he uses colossus
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby daishan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:22 pm

I keep meaning to try and do some rough maths on the enchants but I can't think of the way to go about it.
As far as I know the colossus absorb doesn't scale with gear or dmg intake, where as the mast/haste from windsong will mitigate more dmg on a hard hitting boss than on a easy 5 man boss, same for the exp weapon chain.
The avoidance from Dancing Steel should also avoid more dmg the harder hitting the boss is (avoiding the same amount of attacks just that they would of hit for more), but due to vengeance will offer a smaller % increase in our AP as we go into harder content.
Sry rambling a little there, hope people understand what I'm trying to get at.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Extermi » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:26 am

Has this been mentioned already ?

In 5.1, we’re migrating four additional procs over to the Real PPM system. Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit are 2 Real PPM, River's Song is 4 Real PPM, and Colossus is 6 Real PPM.


So this should allow to do some more solid calculations in terms of average value of the enchants. Colossus has a relatively small but reliable (compared to dodge chances) absorbtion that is avaliable roughly every 10 seconds, so something like 800DPS being subtracted. Rivers Songs dodge is available 2x more often then the others, and actually with a 7 second duration and 4PPM plus a bit of haste this can have like 50% uptime of 1650 dodge, so roughly 800 dodge (very roughly 1%) in average.

Dancing spirit seems to have only half the uptime (is it also a 7 second buff) of a similar amount of parry, plus some limited offense and sacred shield / WoG boost.

For the time being I will definitely stay with Colossus, but I can imagine that Rivers Song can have an advantage especially when the boss damage grows larger while the Colossus bubble stays constant.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Schroom » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:50 am

daishan wrote:I keep meaning to try and do some rough maths on the enchants but I can't think of the way to go about it.
As far as I know the colossus absorb doesn't scale with gear or dmg intake, where as the mast/haste from windsong will mitigate more dmg on a hard hitting boss than on a easy 5 man boss, same for the exp weapon chain.
The avoidance from Dancing Steel should also avoid more dmg the harder hitting the boss is (avoiding the same amount of attacks just that they would of hit for more), but due to vengeance will offer a smaller % increase in our AP as we go into harder content.
Sry rambling a little there, hope people understand what I'm trying to get at.



I understand exactly where you are going. this are exactly my arguments why I prefer Windsong...
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby daishan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:01 am

Ok I'll have a random stab at some maths (this will be wrong probably very wrong :D )
600 mast = 1% dmg reduction from SotR
Approximately 50% uptime on SotR so 600 rating = 0.5% less physical dmg taken
Windsong averages out to about 600 mast/haste/crit taking the crit out leaves us with 0.3333% dmg reduction from windsong.
Colossus averages out to 800 dps absorbs.
800/ .00333333= 240000 dps
If i'm anything close to right it looks like we need to take 240kdps before windsong mitigates more dmg than colossus O.o
As I said most likely shit maths would love to know where i've gone wrong.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:51 am

I'm not sure that's right. 240,000dps ? that's seems a very small (if you mean damage) or extremely high number depending on what you're applying it to, currently my fights are like 40k dps damage taken.

Colossus will be 800 HPS (it's an absorb not damage), over the course of a 5 minute fight it will absorb around 240,000 in damage.

The Windsong is going to harder to calculate, at least, it is for me.

I had it (song) on last night so my numbers will be a little screwy but using real numbers might be easier to figure this out although I could be totally wrong, I think it's closer to reals.

Stone Guard last night lasted 5:51, if I had used Colossus(5.1) it would have absorbed (800x351) 280,800 damage.

Windsong procs are supposedly independent, (mastery) proc'ed 6 times, for an uptime of 17.2%, additionally I only managed to keep SotR up 34% of the time during the fight (bad me :() so only half of all SotR's had an extra 1500rating or 2.5%, so that is 0.425% extra physical dmg reduction during the whole fight.

I took 9.4million in Rend damage and 4.8million in regular melee dmg (or 14,232,407 in total) so 0.425% of that is 60,488 (rounded up).

Lets take a longer more static fight, my longest of the night was Will of the Emperor.

It clocked in at 8minutes and 41 seconds, so Colossus would have absorbed (521x800) 416,800 in HPS.

Windsong, proc'd mastery only 5 times, an uptime of 11%, luckily my SotR was steady at 33%, now however only a 3rd of my SotR's are now granted that extra 2.5%, or 0.275% physical damage reduction. Will is all physical, I took 19,145,698. So that leaves us with windsong helping with 52,651 dmg. So I absorbed less damage with a longer time simply because I didn't get lucky with the procs.

Even taking the highest proc rate, which was haste, still takes us to a similar % as stone guard and 81,369dmg.

This is only in 5.1, from looking at peoples logs currently Colossus seems to absorb considerably less than is indicated by the 800HPS it will after the patch, currently it seems to only be around 25% of the totals it will be then. Also my numbers are reducing an already reduced number as I did have windsong on, however if my working out is anywhere near correct, it shouldn't be that big a shift.
Last edited by Lastwolf on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby daishan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:13 am

Ye i'm fairly sure i'm doing something wrong.
What i'm trying to say in my last post is that we'd need to be taking on average 240k dmg ever second for windsong to mitigate more dmg then colossus bubbles absorb.
If that's anything close to correct from a purely dmg prevention stand point windsong will be fairly weak until we get to bosses doing crazy high tank dmg.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:37 am

Well, you could be right there, certainly the higher damage the boss does the more mastery will win over a static absorb but that's such a considerable leap from current damage, that is 8times the current dps of most normal mode bosses, not sure well see that kind of damage this expansion :P
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby jere » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:52 am

There has always been a negative stigma attached to static values versus scaled values. Sometimes we forget that just because it is static doesn't mean it has to be worse in a practical sense. Also, won't colossus start scaling with gear once on the RPPM system (well assuming you gear for haste at all)?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:04 am

it'll scale a bit but no idea how haste affects the RPPM system apart from that its good somehow.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Extermi » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:36 am

If I recall correctly, haste directly benefits the RPPM system in a linear way, so 10% haste => 10% more absorb

By the way, ist seems Dancing Spirit is 12s and not 7s, so it nearly has the same average uptime than Rivers Song (24s vs 28s per minute). Still, given the insane price of these enchants, Im still not that impressed.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Nooska » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:38 am

Haste linearly affects the RPPM system according to the blue post explaining it. 10% haste means you get 1.1 PPM from a 1 RPPM enchant.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:24 am

And note that we will always have 10% spell haste from SoI, and the raid spell haste buff, plus any haste on our gear. So for us it will always be 800*spell_haste absorption per second.

Dancing Steel is going to be better than River's Song. The uptimes are similar, but DS gives you parry (which in most gear sets is diminished less than dodge), plus some DPS, plus some SoI healing.

Correcting some of the math on Windsong: Since each buff is independent, let's take the best-case situation where you get 2 procs that do not overlap (such that you won't "waste" half of a haste buff by getting another haste proc, for example). It's 1500 rating for 12s out of 60s, for an average effect of 300 rating. You get 2 procs per minute, so your average effect is 600 rating, but it's random what you get. Since we ignore crit, that means you actually get 600*2/3 = 400 average rating from the enchant. Note also that half of that rating is mastery and half is haste. And remember, in terms of raw TDR, haste is abysmal. Putting my current stats into my spreadsheet, I get the following stat weights:

Code: Select all
Armor     0.8358
Parry     0.4324
Dodge     0.4339
Strength  0.4224
Mastery     0.4380
Hit     0.2248
Expertise 0.1445
Haste     0.1722

So haste is about 0.1722/0.4380=39.3% as good as mastery for TDR. Having 200 haste and 200 mastery is roughly equivalent to having 278.6 mastery. Using your conversion of uptime*rating/600, that's only 0.232% reduced damage taken even at 50% uptime on SotR. However, there's an error here too - this is absolute damage taken, not relative damage taken. To correct it, we'd need to divide by the amount we actually take (i.e. if we only take 70% of the damage that's coming at us, it's 0.00232/0.3=0.0077, or ~0.8% relative damage reduction).

In practice, this number is about right. With my stat weights, my TDR is around 71.5%, or 28.5% of raw boss damage taken. So, using our guess of about 0.8% relative damage reduction, how much DTPS must we be seeing in logs for this to equal Colossus absorption?

It should be (0.8%*DTPS)=880, or about 110k DTPS. Note that I've included the free 10% spell haste we get from SoI there, but not other haste contributions (spell haste raid buff, haste on gear, bloodlust, etc.). In practice the number will be a little higher. For example, in my gear set I have 4.14% haste, for 14.14% total before raid buffs and 14.847% after raid buffs, which means I'd be getting around 1188 HPS from colossus, raising the threshold to 148.5k DTPS.

So in 5.1, Windsong will definitely not be the best TDR enchant. Colossus has it beat by a fair bit, and even during high-damage-intake situations they'll be about equal. As of right now, Colossus' proc rate is a little lower - on our last Stone Guard 25H kill, it procced 34 times for 272k absorption in about 7 minutes, for about 650 HPS. That's still well ahead of Windsong's TDR performance.

In other words, if you are choosing Windsong for reasons of TDR, you're doing it wrong.

Now, you might argue that we're not gearing for hit/exp/haste/mastery for TDR, and you'd be right about that. We're gearing for them because it gives us greater control over our survivability. But I think that's makes for an even weaker argument for Windsong. What gives you more reliable damage smoothing: an 8k absorb every 10-12 seconds, or an uncontrollable proc that may or may not be up when you need it, and has a chance of giving you back-to-back crit procs that don't help you?

Personally, I'd take the 8k absorb. Because my usual death scenario is a 5-8 second window where I'm bursted down without enough healing. There's a very good chance that I'll have one Colossus proc in that window. There's a much smaller chance that I have a useful Windsong proc covering that window. Admittedly, if it does line up, it's a much stronger defensive effect than an 8k absorb, but I'd rather have the 8k absorb 80% of the time than the much larger effect 25% of the time (roughly estimating, 12s*(4/3)/60s=26.6%).
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Schroom » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:29 am

ok so the question remains.... weapon chain or colossus :/
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby jere » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:18 am

theckhd wrote:In other words, if you are choosing Windsong for reasons of TDR, you're doing it wrong.


Luckily, I have only been choosing Windsong because it was sitting in our guild bank. :D
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby theckhd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:51 pm

jere wrote:Luckily, I have only been choosing Windsong because it was sitting in our guild bank. :D

Perfectly valid. See also: free beer.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Fishnuts » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:35 pm

Schroom wrote:ok so the question remains.... weapon chain or colossus :/


Yes this! Does 200 expertise outrank 800 damage reduction per sec?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:29 pm

I'd say the 800damage reduction, can get 200expertise anywhere else it's less than 1 gem, can't get that shield.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby lakhesis » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:39 pm

Just some notes from looking at wowhead's info so far:

- Dancing Steel is a 12 second proc
- River's Song is a 7 second proc

So on a 2RPPM for DS and 4RPPM for RS, you're looking at 24 seconds of Dancing Steel uptime and 28 seconds of River's Song uptime. Which pretty conclusively makes River's Song crap imo.

I kinda like the idea of the weapon chain. It's always there, it adds concrete utility to a control strat versus Colossus's random EH boosting. That said, Colossus is roughly the equivalent of having an extra 435 stam 6 times a minute, so that is fairly solid.

If you were really desperate to convert it to stat weights, you could describe Colossus as covering 6 x 1.5s swings, so 15% uptime of 435 stam. In reality it'll be warped by your avoidance though so that's undervaluing Colossus.

With Theck's askmrrobot stat weights (2.68 for stam, 1.9 for expertise, 0.5 for strength) that's:
Colossus = 2.68 x 435 x 0.15 = 174.87
Weapon Chain = 200 x 1.9 = 380
Dancing Steel = (2 x 12 / 60) x 1680 x 0.5 = 336

With the weapon chain & dancing steel also having the side bonus of boosting your DPS.

I don't think that's really a great way of making the decision, but I do think it lays out a decent starting point. As I said, I'm leaning towards the chain personally but currently I've tossed Colossus on cos it's cheap & I haven't made up my mind.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:47 pm

Would Colossus truly account for ~435 stamina since, once it successfully absorbs, until it procs again, there isn't the possibility to heal it back up?

Also, should Colossus double proc (if it can), does it stack the bubble or just replace it?
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby Lastwolf » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:50 am

well according to my own logs, it sometimes does less healing so it must referesh, but I think double proc's are removed in 5.1.
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Re: Weapon enchant in 5.0.4

Postby lifeonmars » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:28 am

Hespherus wrote:Am i the only one considering Dancing steel? 1650 strength for 12 seconds every minute? Thats roughly 1600 parry rating, plus more dps/healing and absorbs from sacred shield if refreshed during that window.


Dancing Steel makes the most sense if you're not going Collosus in my opinion.
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