2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

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2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby daishan » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:09 am

Hey all
Had a quick scan and couldn't see much about this.
Just wondering if anyone has done the maths to work out how much dps a prot pally would gain using the Ret 2P?

Thanks in advance
-Daish
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Treck » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:50 am

Quite a bit actually.
But i dont see why you would bother using the 2 prot pieces.
Best "should" be 2p ret t13 + 2p prot t12 for most dmg (last time i checked 2p prot outperformed 2p ret from t12)
Problem with 2P ret t13 is that you have soo much holy power!
Its hard getting into the rotation with so much tbh ^^
Id estimate about 10%? more dps as prot? IF rotation is done right, takes practice tho.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby daishan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:03 am

Thx for the info.
I can't really go 2p prot t12 as I was really unlucky with heroic tokens in t12.
Should of maybe just said 2p ret t13 :)
We just need our dps to stop slacking tbh.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby daishan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:55 am

Just thought I guess for max dps it should be 2p t12 prot 2p t13 ret and the pvp gloves for the 5% to CS http://www.wowhead.com/item=73570 :D
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:56 am

Treck wrote:Id estimate about 10%? more dps as prot? IF rotation is done right, takes practice tho.

It's not quite 10%, closer to 3-5%. It's between 600-1000 DPS at low hit/exp, and gets worse as you gain exp. At 8% hit / 26 expertise, it's only around 400 DPS.

daishan wrote:Just thought I guess for max dps it should be 2p t12 prot 2p t13 ret and the pvp gloves for the 5% to CS http://www.wowhead.com/item=73570 :D

Just be aware that the PvP gloves are misleading; the effective increase to your WoL CS damage is only 1%, not 5%. Which is likely only an increase of ~0.3% overall, or ~75-80 DPS. You can do almost as well with several other items, including the valor gloves and heroic Fireskin Gauntlets from T12. I've put in DPS stat weights that comparison, so the "Score" is the DPS value of each item based on those stat weights. As you can see, all of the alternatives beat the PvP gloves in raw stats by up to ~36 DPS, so the net gain by going to the PvP gloves is only about 40 DPS. You might see a larger gain by using heroic T13 gloves (reforge dodge->exp) if it lets you use a hit/exp item in another slot where you'd otherwise couldn't.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby daishan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:16 am

Thx for the warning about the pvp gloves, would of hated to put myself and a friend through a load of arena tonight only to of found that out afterwards.
I'm at 27 exp and 4% hit atm, so I'll probably have to wait for normal mode tier drops to make running with 2p ret viable.
Thx again
Daish
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Cema » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:12 am

So I need a bit of clarification about what you said here Theck

I'm currently trying hard to break 30k on Ultraxion HC and so far I used 2 part T12 Ret (heroic) + 2 part T12 Prot (heroic) for my ranks (and expertise + hit cap and souldrinker Hc ...)

Both bonus represent roughly 3,5% of my dps, so ~1000 dps for both. 2 parts Ret is oftenly a bit ahead

Are you telling me that 2 replacing my 2 parts T12 HC Ret by 2 parts T13 HC Ret would make me loose dps? My personal thoughts on this were that the dps gain granted by the bonus were roughly the same but that the strengh increase on T13 HC would make the difference. So were is truth? :)
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:14 am

Cema wrote:Are you telling me that 2 replacing my 2 parts T12 HC Ret by 2 parts T13 HC Ret would make me loose dps? My personal thoughts on this were that the dps gain granted by the bonus were roughly the same but that the strengh increase on T13 HC would make the difference. So were is truth? :)

Yes, stick with T12 HC Ret.

Why: The DPS gain granted by 2T12 Ret is smaller than 2T13 Ret, for Retribution. Remember that they cast CS less than us (33% less, roughly), have a longer 0->3 HP ramp-up time (13.5s for 3 CS's rather than 9s for us, which is often lower thanks to Grand Crusader), and TV represents a much larger damage increase than SotR. Ret DPS is very heavily dependent on HPG, so getting HP from Judgement is a very large DPS for them.

Because we cast more Crusader Strikes, and because CS makes up more of our damage (30% or more, usually), the DPS gain from 2T12 is uncommonly large. Similarly, at high hit/exp, our rotation ends up having very few empty GCDs. Remember that SotR hits (not crits) for roughly the same as J or AS. So we don't gain as much by casting more SotR's, especially because it generally means we have fewer Sacred Duty procs to make them auto-crits.

As a result, the simulations I've run show that while T13 Ret 2-piece is roughly 1000 DPS at low hit, it drops to around 400 DPS at hit/exp cap (and less yet if the boss can't parry, like Ultrax).

You can estimate the gain from strength easily enough. You're probably using T12H ret gloves/legs in your Ultraxion setup, but let's do a best-case scenario where you're considering upgrading the helm/chest instead. You gain 89 STR from the helm slot, and around 129 from the chest (it's actually a little less effective than this, since you can use a hit/str gem in the T12 chest for extra DPS). That's 218 Strength, at around 1.4 DPS per point (strength is a weak stat for us), or around 300 DPS.

So you sacrifice a 1k+ DPS proc from 2T12H Ret to gain a 400 DPS proc from 2T13H Ret (and possibly less - again, Ultrax doesn't parry, so it's likely less than 300 DPS) plus around 300 DPS worth of STR, at most. Still a net loss.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Cema » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:51 am

thanks

I guess I'd have to smash my keyboard harder then and maybe ask for some ToT
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:02 am

Str trinks? Str flask?

Other Ret pieces to sacrifice Avoidance for Crit/Haste?
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby theckhd » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:17 pm

Another thing to consider is to start skipping prot gear entirely. You really don't need to be block-capped for Ultraxion, as his melees aren't all that bad. You could drop 5-10% CTC and still survive pretty well with permanent Holy Shield and high-uptime Divine Protection. That strategy might let you swap out a mastery trinket for another DPS trinket, for example. It's all a matter of how much your healers are willing to put up with.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Cema » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:49 pm

Ok so I smashed a bit more tonight and nearly broke 30k (29k9) but died something like 12 seconds before the boss. In fact I was sitting at 31k1. I had to sacrifice my block cap and while the boss played it fair and square during 4minutes he just raped me for 240k before dying (I had the +100% damage debuff and the other tank had a 3 seconds debuff ... so there were no other option ... )

Hrobertgar wrote:Str trinks? Str flask?
Other Ret pieces to sacrifice Avoidance for Crit/Haste?


I oftenly use stam flask because stam is not so much under strengh on fights like this when you spend your time with 100% vengeance after the first minute. And btw with no block cap, stamina is most welcome. If I was able to have my block cap I believe I would go for strengh flask yes

Trinkets = Spine HC + Chimaeron HC. Chimaeron HC is still better than most dps trinket

Food = strengh food

Ret gear : Morchok HC bracers / Hagara HC Belt / Valor point dps neck / valor point dps ring / valor point dps cloak / raid finder Ultraxion ring

The few improve I could do would be my boots, my rings and Chimaeron's trinkek. Moar strengh plx

I reforge whatever I have to mastery. When there is already mastery I reforge for hit then expertise then crit.
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:43 am

Cema wrote:Trinkets = Spine HC + Chimaeron HC. Chimaeron HC is still better than most dps trinket




That's interesting. You wouldn't think License to Slay, Creche of the Final Dargon or even Essence of the Eternal Flame to be better than Heart of Rage?
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Cema » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:25 am

Licence to slay and Essence of the Eternal Flame are ok but not as much as heart of Rage on a tank&spank fight. But yes I'd like to replace my heart of Rage by the Creche of the Final Dragon HC (won't be able to get the normal mode one since I don't do normal mode)

On 4 minute 50 kill

Licence to slay = 321 rating + 380 strengh

Essence of the Eternal Flame (5 activations) = 383 rating + (1277*15*5)/(50+4*60) = 383 rating + 330 strengh

Heart of Rage HC (3 procs) = 363 rating + (3*20*2178)/(50+4*60) strengh = 363 rating + 450 strengh

Creche of the final Dragon HC (3 procs) = (3*20*3278)/(50+4*60) rating + 517 strengh = 678 rating + 517 strengh


I didn't take into account the fact that you use some of them more in combination with avenging wrath than others but if you look closely it wouldn't change the fact that Heart of Rage is really ahead LtS and EotEF
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Re: 2P Ret + 2P Prot T13

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:46 am

Hrm, interesting.

I suppose I need to clean up my rotation cause I just sucked majorly this past week.
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