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Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:32 am
by degre
Last night was playing a bit with my reforge to fix the excess in CTC that I'm having after I've got a few upgrades and I've stopped staring at that Windwalk on my weapon, I mean, until I wasn't ctc capped surely was extremely useful, but how useful is now, when I'm ctc capped and I no longer need an unreliable avoidance proc?

Point is, before doing something demented I thought I'll ask for an opinion here...

Anyway, in my reasoning first I thought of Mending, shame the healing isn't really that much... so I thought that maybe I could instead go down the DPS path and get Landslide, and surely I could do with extra dps.


Thoughts? Am I going insane?

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:41 am
by Juugimus
I was wondering this as well. With the tight enrage timers of some of the early heroics, I was looking at that Landslide enchant and wondering.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:53 am
by lythac
Just FYI Landslide at 100% vengeance values -
2% hit, 10 exp = 240 DPS
8% Hit, 26 exp = 300 DPS

Matlab thread - Enchant/Food Comparison

I can see it being worth it, I definitely wouldn't think of it as "doing it wrong".

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:59 am
by tlitp
lythac wrote:Landslide at 100% vengeance values -
(...)

Unlike Hurricane or the Weapon Chains, Avalanche/Landslide are both Vengeance-invariant. Nitpicking at its finest. :P

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:13 am
by Dantriges
What´s the gain of the weapon chain?

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:49 am
by Hawkslayer
I've also been considering moving away from Windwalk to something else, but have yet to commit to trying anything.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:26 pm
by fuzzygeek
Dantriges wrote:What´s the gain of the weapon chain?


Smaller than Landslide; the Matlab threat lythac linked above has theck's in-depth analysis and graphs.

The thing I'm thinking, however, is I want to make sure I hit more often, not necessarily harder. I'm interested in the hit for Souldrinker and Delayed Judgement procs, not because I want to do more dps.

In which case the weapon chain would give me the stats I want, at the cost of either RNG avoidance, or straight AP (Landslide). Neither 2pcT13 nor Souldrinker benefit from AP, afaict.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:04 pm
by tlitp
fuzzygeek wrote:I'm interested in the hit (...), not because I want to do more dps. {I)
Neither 2pcT13 nor Souldrinker benefit from AP, afaict. (II}

I. That's just sickening, in more than one way. :mrgreen:
II. Having only those ridiculous "bubbles" in mind, LS is roughly two times stronger than PWC (at low hit/exp).

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:36 pm
by Stubblerump
I'd argue that it's still the standard. You may be ctc capped, but that means most of it is mitigated damage, not avoided damage. Dodge means no damage. Being ctc capped just allows you the freedom to move away from mitigation and start putting more into actual avoidance, imo. As for being an unreliable proc...well, so is the healy one. Extra dps is cool, mostly shining in small groups and marginally helpful in a raid. But tank survival, which usually comes down to healer mana conservation, trumps everything.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:32 pm
by Kihra
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've always used Landslide and think Windwalk is just worthless.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:00 pm
by fuzzygeek
tlitp wrote:I. That's just sickening, in more than one way. :mrgreen:


Away with you, pure DPS class!

tlitp wrote:II. Having only those ridiculous "bubbles" in mind, LS is roughly two times stronger than PWC (at low hit/exp).


Admittedly, the bubbles are small and lost in the statistical noise of overhealing and whatnot. Alone they're really not a big deal. In tandem, they add up, but again, are so small as to be noise and likely overhealing. But in specific cases, can they be game changing?

I'm digging through n.Ultraxion logs where I was trying to juggle Inq, and have a WoG and Delayed Judgement shield up for every Hour. It's a lot of buttons and CDs to juggle, as well as being a change in my rotation (I've not tried to keep inq up, prior to this). Needless to say I made a botch of it, but it's nice knowing that I can delay a Judgement to give myself 6-9k free health for a little bit.

So I guess it comes down to a choice between a few hundred DPS in exchange for some Hit. I'm leaning towards the Hit, but if I can hit 8% elsewhere without getting too gross, I'd go Landslide, of course.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:55 pm
by degre
fuzzygeek wrote:
Dantriges wrote:What´s the gain of the weapon chain?


Smaller than Landslide; the Matlab threat lythac linked above has theck's in-depth analysis and graphs.

The thing I'm thinking, however, is I want to make sure I hit more often, not necessarily harder. I'm interested in the hit for Souldrinker and Delayed Judgement procs, not because I want to do more dps.

In which case the weapon chain would give me the stats I want, at the cost of either RNG avoidance, or straight AP (Landslide). Neither 2pcT13 nor Souldrinker benefit from AP, afaict.

2pct13 should benefit from AP, as the shield provided is 25% of the damage judged and judgement is AP based.

Unleashing this Seal's energy will deal (1 + 0.223 * holy spell power.142 * AP) Holy damage to an enemy, increased by 20% for each application of Censure on the target.


I'm not in the condition to do any math now, 1000 AP shouldn't really make a noticeable difference in our shield, but would do it, while I believe you are correct in saying that souldrinker shouldn't benefit from AP.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:15 am
by Xarlanther
I definitly advice against using Mending.
I tried it for a few raids not to long ago (firelands hc) and it only showed around 20k healing over the total course of a bossfight according to the logs.

Windwalk is still very powerful as it has a pretty high uptime, I do agree it has become less of a no brainer choice though.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:24 am
by Cli
Kihra wrote:Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've always used Landslide and think Windwalk is just worthless.


You are not alone.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:56 am
by fuzzygeek
It's not completely worthless, but it's hard to quantify. 2% dodge proc with ~15-20% uptime vs more dps isn't very compelling to some people, but 2% dodge proc vs increased DPS when that DPS can be a significant contributor to overall RDPS *and* personal bubbles (I stand corrected on it affecting Judgement, which pretty much tipped me over to running LS) -- is far more compelling.

I'd still prefer a hundred hit rating enchant, but, alas.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:30 am
by degre
I haven't run any number, but at a glance I'd say that a 1000ap is probably going to make a change to our judgement's bubble in the order of the 3 digits, negligible, I just wanted to point out that our AP does affect the bubble*.

Oh, and I'd prefer a hundred hit rating myself if it was available, unfortunately we have to do with the 40 :cry:


Anyway, thanks to all for contributing, I think I've made up my mind for my next weapon.


*based on observation on my toon, last raid I was doing 25k judgement having around 8k AP plus vengeance, so even if 1000AP could give a straight 1000dmg, the shield would be for 250 :lol:

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:49 pm
by fuzzygeek
Yeah, the additional .142*AP additional damage on Judgement is laughable, but I have a hard time with just the 40 hit on the PWC.

I may use it if it's the one missing piece to get me to 8%, but so much lost itemization ...

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:44 pm
by 2Cute2BeStr8
I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:06 am
by econ21
2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge.


IIRC, it averages out at 0.7%, but I tend to agree. As someone geared just high enough for LFR when 4.3 hit, I am finding stuff in 10N DS hits much harder than in Firelands. Zon'ozz in particular was rough and we have not even got past Hagara yet. I could see a case for doing Firelands 10N in my threat gear, as I overgeared it but now there seems quite a big jump in item levels (even 5 mans giving 378) with associated gear checks and so my priority is back to what it should be: survivability.

However, I did put landslide on my warrior alt, who was only doing 5 mans. I think a threat set is the way to go for those, as PUGs are much worse now than they were for the Zuls (which scared the weaker players away) and we are back to wotlk style dungeons when few problems cannot be solved by the application of more dps.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:39 am
by degre
2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.

I thought the same all the time I wasn't CTC capped, every little help was welcome, but the problem now is that the dodge from the proc doesn't go towards capping our CTC but pushes mastery off the table as we get in the dirt already capped, so in my eyes it's a waste of itemisation, and I prefer to have a reliable and constant 102.4 from other sources and enchant my sword in a different way.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:44 am
by lythac
degre wrote:
2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:I'll never take windwalk off my weapon. 2 percent dodge is 2 percent dodge. Every small bit counts and that's why we get upgrades. Sure there are situations where it is useless what not/ and I see everyones points. However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.

Obviously there is a time/place for everything.

I thought the same all the time I wasn't CTC capped, every little help was welcome, but the problem now is that the dodge from the proc doesn't go towards capping our CTC but pushes mastery off the table as we get in the dirt already capped, so in my eyes it's a waste of itemisation, and I prefer to have a reliable and constant 102.4 from other sources and enchant my sword in a different way.


At our levels of DR, with Mastery being ~3 times as effective at CTC it devalues the worth of the gained dodge by a third (that amount of Mastery is pushed off and wasted for the duration of the buff). Uptime of the buff is 20-30%, so the value of the proc is around -

2/3 * 600 * 0.25 = ~100 Dodge (which doesn't contribute to achieving 102.4%, so devaluing it compared to normal constant dodge)

Windwalk can win over that IMO.

Not sure that 40 hit is preferable to ~100 dodge (which doesn't contribute to full CTC). As fuzzygeek mentioned if you are 40 hit short of 8% then it is worth considering.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:02 am
by Dantriges
fuzzygeek wrote:
Dantriges wrote:What´s the gain of the weapon chain?


Smaller than Landslide; the Matlab threat lythac linked above has theck's in-depth analysis and graphs.

The thing I'm thinking, however, is I want to make sure I hit more often, not necessarily harder. I'm interested in the hit for Souldrinker and Delayed Judgement procs, not because I want to do more dps.

In which case the weapon chain would give me the stats I want, at the cost of either RNG avoidance, or straight AP (Landslide). Neither 2pcT13 nor Souldrinker benefit from AP, afaict.


Ah thanks. Yeah I was thinking along the same lines. Just wanted o know what I give up.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:46 am
by fuzzygeek
2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:However, 1 dodge from that 2 percent throughout the entire encounter = more damage absorbed.


On the flip side, additional tank DPS ending the fight X seconds sooner is (impossible to quantify amount) less raid damage taken, and that much less time for someone to screw up the fight and wipe the raid. :D

On something like Ultraxion where shit starts getting serious at the 5:30 mark, the difference between everyone being alive and everyone being dead is very realistically the amount of DPS the tank adds over the previous five minutes. This will be especially true for 10s, and in 25s you could argue that the 2% dodge with poor uptime would just get lost in the statistical noise.

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:49 am
by tlitp
fuzzygeek wrote:Yeah, the additional .142*AP additional damage on Judgement is laughable (...)

That's the base scaling coefficient. Once you factor in all the modifiers (talents/glyphs/buffs/crits a.s.o), the net scaling is roughly five times stronger (~0.7).

Re: Windwalk, outdated?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:41 am
by fuzzygeek
Ah, right. I had been doing some napkin math that wasn't turning out right but got distracted by something shiny and never followed up. This explains it -- thank you.