resolve of undying

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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Paoanii » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:37 am

theckhd wrote:
Paoanii wrote:I'm essentially trading 117 stam and 265 mastery for 880 dodge, a trade I'm more than willing to make for a fight like Morchok or Warmaster Blackhorn that is largely physical damage.


I'm not sure those are the best examples. Morchok's Stomp, which can't be dodged, hits harder than his melees on heroic mode. And about half of Blackhorn's damage is Disrupting Roar, which isn't a melee attack.

My point though is that most of the damage on the tank is concentrated into things that CAN be avoided, like Morchok's melees or Blackhorn's Devastates and Melees as opposed to a fight like Yor'sahj where almost 80% of the tank damage is Void Bolt, or Zon'ozz where about 40% is magic damage from different sources.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:57 am

Paoanii wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Paoanii wrote:I'm essentially trading 117 stam and 265 mastery for 880 dodge, a trade I'm more than willing to make for a fight like Morchok or Warmaster Blackhorn that is largely physical damage.


I'm not sure those are the best examples. Morchok's Stomp, which can't be dodged, hits harder than his melees on heroic mode. And about half of Blackhorn's damage is Disrupting Roar, which isn't a melee attack.

My point though is that most of the damage on the tank is concentrated into things that CAN be avoided, like Morchok's melees or Blackhorn's Devastates and Melees as opposed to a fight like Yor'sahj where almost 80% of the tank damage is Void Bolt, or Zon'ozz where about 40% is magic damage from different sources.

I understand your point, but I'm saying that in neither of those cases is the damage concentrated in avoidable melee attacks. In 25H Morchok's case, around 30% of your overall damage taken is Stomp. However, it can be closer to 50% of the damage in a death scenario (~130k plus one or two 75-80k blocked melee attacks). In 25N Blackhorn's case, around 60% of the damage you're taking is from Disrupting Roar. Again, your death scenario is going to be Roar + melee + melee. So it's not much different than Zon'ozz's damage breakdown, which you're using as an example of a fight where the trinket isn't that good.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Paoanii » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:34 am

theckhd wrote:
Paoanii wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm not sure those are the best examples. Morchok's Stomp, which can't be dodged, hits harder than his melees on heroic mode. And about half of Blackhorn's damage is Disrupting Roar, which isn't a melee attack.

My point though is that most of the damage on the tank is concentrated into things that CAN be avoided, like Morchok's melees or Blackhorn's Devastates and Melees as opposed to a fight like Yor'sahj where almost 80% of the tank damage is Void Bolt, or Zon'ozz where about 40% is magic damage from different sources.

I understand your point, but I'm saying that in neither of those cases is the damage concentrated in avoidable melee attacks. In 25H Morchok's case, around 30% of your overall damage taken is Stomp. However, it can be closer to 50% of the damage in a death scenario (~130k plus one or two 75-80k blocked melee attacks). In 25N Blackhorn's case, around 60% of the damage you're taking is from Disrupting Roar. Again, your death scenario is going to be Roar + melee + melee. So it's not much different than Zon'ozz's damage breakdown, which you're using as an example of a fight where the trinket isn't that good.


It seems like our arguments just boil down to a difference between 10s and 25s in that case. I'm speaking from a 10 man perspective, where Blackhorn's Melees and Devastates are over 85% of his damage done. I'll concede that you're right in that case, if 40%+ of the damage is completely unavoidable (in terms of dodge/parry that is) I would definitely stick with the stam trinket, that just doesn't seem to be the case very often on 10 man.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Treck » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:13 pm

Devastates are also very reliable on a timer, that means reliable to CD once his vengeance stacks high enough.
But his devastate standing for 85% dmg doesnt seem right.
Im sure it does more dmg than roar (on the tank) problem is the healing during the roar, and like i said, Devastates are easy to CD (so is the roar fyi)
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Paoanii » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:23 pm

I'm saying devastates and melee damage, the 2 sources that can be dodge/parried, but you're right, its really easy to have a CD up for every devastate/roar.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:29 pm

Treck wrote:Devastates are also very reliable on a timer, that means reliable to CD once his vengeance stacks high enough.
But his devastate standing for 85% dmg doesnt seem right.
Im sure it does more dmg than roar (on the tank) problem is the healing during the roar, and like i said, Devastates are easy to CD (so is the roar fyi)


What timers are you using? cause I can't see devestate?
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:57 pm

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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Ironshield » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:16 am

Just a word on the stacking, I got this trinket quite early on, think it's the lfr one actually, and it stacks up to 10 stacks pretty quickly on a target dummy and feels like AGES before it drops off, though I think it's just 10seconds but still more than enough time to be attacking something to refresh it. Possibly might drop off on Morchok's blood.

I haven't actually used it anywhere yet as although I suppose it should be a EH gain over the 383 mastery, it's definitely not a CTC gain and I was testing very close to the cap. Could experiment now that I've freed up a trinket slot but it won't be optimal any time soon.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:33 am

DXE has been really good this patch as well.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Raive » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:39 pm

I've been using this trinket for lack of a better one (I was still using the moonwell phial until I got it), and rather than stacking two mastery trinkets.
It stacks incredibly fast, pretty much any attack you throw including auto attacks grant a stack, capping out at 10 in around 5 seconds or so. The only time I've had it fall off is during heroic dungeons where I'm running around all the time, though I'm sure theres some raid fights that its fallen off and I just havent paid enough attention to it.
That being said, I agree its pretty underwhelming especially compared to the other roles version of the trinkets from spine, I think they need to go the healer trinket route and tag on a static stamina counterpart to the trinket to make it more appealing.
I'll likely replace it either way with the stam trinket that gives the absorb shield (name escapes me and I'm at work atm) but we havent so much as seen it drop yet.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:05 pm

I picked this up last night and I'm... conflicted. I figure I could use it with the valor on use dodge proc, run ~3-4% under CTC (depending on what the value of the 8 stacks turns out to be) and just pop my dodge trinket for the start to cover the CTC gap until the stacks build. It would replace my 575 stamina with random dodge proc - so the question it leaves me asking is if ~880 dodge is worth 575 stamina + random proc.

It feels like an obvious yes... but it's just random avoidance. I guess the true question is - how much mastery can I convert to Stamina with this trinket? Envelope math tells me 880 dodge = ~400 mastery worth of CTC, which is ~600 stamina. So assuming perfect use, and using the on-use proc to cover for the downtime, I'd roughly break even on stamina, convert 5% block to dodge, and lose the random proc. I'm not sure the 1149 dodge for 20 seconds on a 1 or 2 minute ICD (I don't know which) is worth all that much to me.

So it seems it is worth replacing a Veil of Lies with a 403 Resolve of Undying, assuming my envelope math is at all correct.

Edit: Math was incorrect. Test Dummy shows that full stacks are ~4% CTC, which translates to ~478 stamina. Way Way behind any mastery or stamina trinket, plus those all have some sort of proc. Completely useless.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:55 am

I put this in my avoidance set for those fights where the boss applies an avoidable stacking debuff. But for normal tanking I NEVER trade mastery for more avoidance, as long as I can maintain CTC with block I always go stam or hit/exp. However, to avoid those avoidable stacking debuffs, I even put avoidance gems in anything that is used only in my avoidance set.

There are a few fights where CTC isn't that critical and some combo of stam/resist is better, unfortunately I am limited in my T13 stam trinkets atm, and only have Mirror for resists (never got Sindy's Fang).
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:26 am

The only fight I can think of this being useful for in DS is perhaps Phase 2 of Blackhorn. Maybe solo tanking normal Morchok, but it's pretty silly to gear for that fight. Void Bolt isn't avoidable, Tetanus isn't avoidable, and I can't think of anything else stacking on the tank.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Treck » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:12 pm

If theres any fight you choose a mastery trinket for its passive ctc, resolve of undying would likely result in more CTC, and especially more dmg reduction since its 100% avoiding damage instead of just a block.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:48 pm

More damage reduction, I'd agree. But, for example, fire of the deeps is 458 mastery + on use dodge proc. At my current (low) Dodge level, Resolve is 4% CTC = ~315 mastery, so it's only 2/3rds the CTC (and than you still have the dodge proc).
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:11 am

Treck wrote:If theres any fight you choose a mastery trinket for its passive ctc, resolve of undying would likely result in more CTC, and especially more dmg reduction since its 100% avoiding damage instead of just a block.

That's actually fairly unlikely. Dodge gives about 1/3 of the CTC that mastery does, so 880 dodge is only about 293 mastery worth of CTC. Even the starter trinkets (mirror, for example) have more than that, and Mirror in particular has a fairly useful proc for several fights.

Plus, as you and several others have noted, most of the dangerous damage isn't avoidable. If people are already trying to reach CTC by using as much mastery as possible so they can convert more of the unnecessary dodge/parry to stamina, it wouldn't make much sense to use this trinket, even though the static dodge is over-itemized.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Treck » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:29 am

Im not saying resolve is good.
Ive also always had 990 dodge in my head when i think of it as its the "best" one, but its still not a good trinket or something you wanna use in that many fights.
Mirror is obviously not bad either, but theres really only 2-3 fights its that usefull on, id take resolve over mirror on all the others.
I also made it clear that if the only reason you pick a mastery trinket is for its passive ctc, resolve is not a bad choise to compare with.
Its a bit over 3% dodge vs about 5% block.

Also, is there ever any possible way to convert unnnecessary dodge/parry to stamina?
Only real way is gemming really, and there dodge/parry isnt of a concern anyway, since you either choose mastery, or just stamina, gemming for dodge/parry nomatter how far away from ctc cap you are is just not going to be worth it (thats not to say dual colored gems with dodge/parry are pure wrong, but i wouldnt say its much worth it)
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:35 pm

Gemming and enchants are the only ways. But the point is that most of us are still using many mastery or mast/stam gems (and in red sockets, parry/mast or parry/stam provided the bonus is decent). Using a trinket that gives 3% dodge instead of 5% block means that you're sacrificing a potential 2% CTC, which in most cases can be converted to stamina via gems.

i.e. switch from resolve to a 5% block trinket, switch 2% worth of mastery (~150ish rating) on gems to stamina (225 stamina, or a little over 3k health).

It's not an amazingly large trade or anything, but most of us would probably still take it.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Cowmmunion » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:43 pm

I know in my case, I've got 15 pure mastery gems compared to 4 pure stamina gems. I'm reforging almost entirely out of Parry, and would love to be able to start switching those pure mastery gems over. For the time being (and probably forever) I'm going to keep that 403 Resolve of the Undying benched in favor of the 378 Veil of Lies, simply because (Even assuming it was a steady 880 dodge) of the reasons you've stated.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby DeanWhipper » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:53 pm

Long time reader, first time poster, lol

I really can't see why there's so much hate for this trinket, it ramps up to full stacks within 5~ seconds and I can't think of a single situation in DS where I wouldn't be hitting something for anywhere near 10 seconds.

Personally, I've taken the 880dodge with 99% uptime and used it to reforge every bit of dodge on my gear to exp and hit so now I'am sitting on 26exp and 6%hit, this puts me significantly higher on the charts at the cost of 20k~ health or there abouts.

One could argue that I could just go with 2 mastery trinkets and achieve the same thing more efficiently, but my healers all wanted more avoidance rather than mastery.

On the topic of tank dps, I've heard a few people suggest stam stacking was better dps due to Vengence ramping up? Is there any truth to this?

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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:42 am

DeanWhipper wrote:Personally, I've taken the 880dodge with 99% uptime and used it to reforge every bit of dodge on my gear to exp and hit so now I'am sitting on 26exp and 6%hit, this puts me significantly higher on the charts at the cost of 20k~ health or there abouts.

One could argue that I could just go with 2 mastery trinkets and achieve the same thing more efficiently, but my healers all wanted more avoidance rather than mastery.



The thing, however, mate, is that in this patch, the large amount of damage is unavoidable. I would much prefer the 20k health over being higher on the charts. In FL, I was close to 18.5% dodge/parry and there was a point in early DS that I was nearly 20%. However, when we started to push into heroics, I dropped to 17% dodge/parry in favor of more stam due to the high damage that cannot be avoided.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:55 am

DeanWhipper wrote:On the topic of tank dps, I've heard a few people suggest stam stacking was better dps due to Vengence ramping up? Is there any truth to this?

Nope. Exp/hit are miles ahead of stam in terms of DPS. Even strength beats it out.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:43 am

Only argument I could see is you're also gaining the benefits of having more stam (larger buffer before death) but as theck said, dps-wise, it trails.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:16 pm

DeanWhipper wrote:Personally, I've taken the 880dodge with 99% uptime and used it to reforge every bit of dodge on my gear to exp and hit so now I'am sitting on 26exp and 6%hit, this puts me significantly higher on the charts at the cost of 20k~ health or there abouts.

One could argue that I could just go with 2 mastery trinkets and achieve the same thing more efficiently, but my healers all wanted more avoidance rather than mastery.


I would be surprised if your healers could tell the difference with the ~5% swing between avoidance and mastery I think is likely between the two setups; it would be interesting to do a blind test and see if they could tell.

I'm at a similar hit/xpt level, but with two stam trinkets -- one with a clicky heal and one with a rather nice shield proc. I far prefer either of these over the stacking dodge trinket, but understand why some people might like it.
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Re: resolve of undying

Postby DeanWhipper » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:21 pm

It seems the topic of hit/exp or extra stam rages on lol.

Honestly I think at the end of the day it's a fairly inconsequential choice, just depends what your healers are comfortable with, considering Ultraxion and Deathwing can't parry and those are the only fights where dps gets mega tight.

Thanks for the heads up on stam vengence damage, seemed like one of those garbage rumors that gets spat out in trade.


And, to answer your question Fuzzy, yeah I have no doubt 99% of healers would have any idea, but these are the kinda people that check up armory regularly lol
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