Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby tlitp » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:21 am

Allow me to expand on that :
  • The ilvl-equivalent Souldrinker/No'Kaled are almost identical. It doesn't really matter that NK isn't a Strength-based weapon, the proc is stronger than Souldrinker's. They end up neck to neck, both at 410 and 416. [see edit]
  • LFR Souldrinker is better than anything from T11.
  • Normal SD/NK (403) are better than anything from T12, except their ilvl 416 counterparts. Yes, better than all the ilvl 410 options.
  • Hand of Morchok is fairly unimpressive. It's worse than LFR Souldrinker, and heroic HoM is worse than normal SD/NK.
  • SD/NK scale better with hit/expertise than any other option. In other words, any serious parse hunter must a. get one of them, b. hard-cap expertise.

EDIT : An updated NK model puts it ahead of SD by at least 200 DPS (depending on hit/exp/priority queue).
Last edited by tlitp on Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Jeremoot » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:25 am

tlitp wrote:Hand of Morchok is fairly unimpressive. It's worse than LFR Souldrinker...


Going by what Theck just posted in the Matlab thread, it's only 100 dps ahead of Hand of Morchok 939SoT. Really I'd say they're about equal, and it all depends on if you'd rather have 119 mastery or the proc.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:31 am

Yes, that was my reading of Theck's new results. I will use Souldrinker LFR if it drops, but given that I already have Hand of Morchok normal, I need not feel too aggrieved when the dps keep winning the rolls.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby tlitp » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:11 am

Apples and oranges ? Let's not pointlessly intertwine fundamentally different metrics. Output-wise, LFR Souldrinker is better than normal HoM. Moreover, the gap becomes larger than the aforementioned 100 when player's expertise isn't a significant factor (past softcap, or on trash).

Speaking of which, Theck (by extension, the matlabadin code) merely presents what's happening at a few specific points. That's intentional. It doesn't mean that one should extrapolate those results to the full spectrum.


EDIT : Proofreading what I've just written, I've realized that I may seem a tad grumpy. Well, I'm not. I'm merely pointing out that the original statement ("HoM is fairly unimpressive") was formulated having in mind more than comes out from the matlabadin thread.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby degre » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:18 am

tlitp wrote:Allow me to expand on that :
  • The ilvl-equivalent Souldrinker/No'Kaled are virtually identical. It doesn't really matter that NK isn't a Strength-based weapon, the proc is stronger than Souldrinker's. They end up neck to neck, both at 410 and 416.
  • LFR Souldrinker is better than anything from T11.
  • Normal SD/NK (403) are better than anything from T12, except their ilvl 416 counterparts. Yes, better than all the ilvl 410 options.
  • Hand of Morchok is fairly unimpressive. It's worse than LFR Souldrinker, and heroic HoM is worse than normal SD/NK.
  • SD/NK scale better with hit/expertise than any other option. In other words, any serious parse hunter must a. get one of them, b. hard-cap expertise.

Typo? Maybe you meant T12 and T13?
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Valour » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:25 am

The consensus thus far seems to be:

1. In terms of DPS output, Heroic Souldrinker is the best, followed by Normal Souldrinker. Normal Souldrinker > Heroic Hand of Morchok.

2. In terms of survivability, Heroic Hand of Morchok may provide extra stamina and mastery, however even assuming a perfect translation of extra mastery to stamina, the Normal Souldrinker would only have to proc once during a death event to match up to the stamina benefit of the Heroic Hand of Morchok. As a plus, some fights (i.e. Madness) give Souldrinker extra bang for its buck by increasing the amount healed by the proc.

Thus, it seems that it's safe to say that, all around, Heroic SD > Normal SD > Heroic HoM >= LFR SD

I'm currently using the Normal SD and I can't really see myself, given the current evidence, switching to anything until heroic SD. If anyone has further evidence that puts Hand of Mor'chok or any other weapon in a more favorable light, I'd be interested to see it.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby yappo » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:34 am

Valour wrote:I'm currently using the Normal SD and I can't really see myself, given the current evidence, switching to anything until heroic SD. If anyone has further evidence that puts Hand of Mor'chok or any other weapon in a more favorable light, I'd be interested to see it.


Personal gear is personal. That said, Hand could theoretically (and after doing some athletic stunts with regemming) carry the mastery (and reforged avoidance) you need to cap CTC after swapping a mastery trinket to a stamina one. Situational, but still.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Phonic » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:30 pm

So even the recent Censure proc nerf doesn't affect the overall results of SD?
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:19 am

The simulations take that into account. I hadn't posted a data set that modeled the proc before the hotfix. The internal build I had pre-hotfix had Souldrinker even further ahead.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby djlar » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:17 am

Does hand of Morchok drop at all?

Never seen it. Since the beginning of DS, on any raid, formal raid on 25, alt 10's, LFR's etc.. never ever seen it drop.

Drop rate that low?
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:19 am

Small sample size, statistically. With a 9% drop rate, not seeing it on 20+ morchok kills isn't at all surprising. 9% drop rate and 20 kills = 15% chance of never seeing it.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:44 am

And it cannot drop in LFR as far as I know.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Cowmmunion » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:52 am

Correct. In LFR weapons only drop on Madness, IIRC.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Arawina » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:17 am

I have both LFR SD and heroic HoM. I've spent quite some time with simc and have come to the conclusion (supported by logs of our raid) that heroic HoM is the one to go for me with my current gear. Also the extra mastery allows me to free up one trinket slot which I can use for whatever trinket works best - be it a dps trinket for the easier bosses like morchok or ultra on heroic or stamina trinkets for the later fights. I'm also quite unimpressed by the healing SD does, more than 50% (sometimes over 70%) end up in useless overheal and for most fights WoG heals me for more and much more effectively. Never seen SD drop besides LFR so I can't say anything about the higher ilvl versions.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:54 am

From what I've been reading, 1 step difference (LFR vs Norm, Norm vs Her) should make SD better than HoM. 2 steps (as you're mentioning above, LFR vs Her) should have the HoM come out ahead.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Dantriges » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:15 am

The Souldrinker LFR version always disappeared into the hand of DPS players. :(
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Cowmmunion » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:53 am

Arawina wrote:I have both LFR SD and heroic HoM. I've spent quite some time with simc and have come to the conclusion (supported by logs of our raid) that heroic HoM is the one to go for me with my current gear. Also the extra mastery allows me to free up one trinket slot which I can use for whatever trinket works best - be it a dps trinket for the easier bosses like morchok or ultra on heroic or stamina trinkets for the later fights. I'm also quite unimpressed by the healing SD does, more than 50% (sometimes over 70%) end up in useless overheal and for most fights WoG heals me for more and much more effectively. Never seen SD drop besides LFR so I can't say anything about the higher ilvl versions.


According to a representative sample of my logs, my overhealing from souldrinker is ranging from 32-38%, and it is averaging about 5.5-6.5% of my total heals received. That being said, I'd definitely go with H HoM over LFR Souldrinker, but I think I'd probably keep normal souldrinker if H HoM dropped. The consistent ~5k heal is worth more to me then the stamina that the mastery would free up.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:31 am

Complaining about how much overheal Souldrinker's proc does is, frankly, sort of missing the point.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby econ21 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:31 am

How big is the health benefit of Soul Drinker's proc?

I am wondering whether to spend scarce conquest points on a PvP weapon (397) for ProtPvP or stick with my LFR SD (384). So in part, I'd be trading off a little resilience for the health of the proc. I wonder what the HPS equivalent (or some other metric) of the SD proc is?

A little off topic, but I wonder to what extent the weapon damage comparison would carry over to PvP? From theck's damage numbers, LFR SD is a tad better than the 397 PvP weapon. However, I am not sure how applicable those numbers are to PvP, where burst is important and you are unlikely to cycle through proper rotations. Would this in anyway affect the trade-off between the damage component of the SD proc and the higher base dps of a 397 weapon?

My gut feeling is to save my conquest points and stick with LFR SD over the 397 PvP weapon, but this is not grounded on a very firm basis. Any views?
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:54 am

You can extract an HPS estimate from the weapon sims, but I'd caution that the applicability to PvP is questionable. At the very least, the DPS estimates will be completely off if you're spending time off-target and breaking rotation. I also don't know how resilience affects Sacred Duty procs.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Treck » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:15 am

I think he means SD procc = Souldrinker procc not Sacred Duty.
As for in pvp its not really that easy to calculate as the procc isnt really reliable to heal in a pvp situation.
Its pretty nice for soloing as your hp goes down slowly and then back up a bit whenever, didnt have to waste a single GCD on healing myself this week (i mainly solo stuff as ret tho as its faster in most cases)
Interesting note tho is that the souldrinker doesnt seem to be able to procc when silenced or smth, as it did 0 damage/healing on voidreaver cuz you are silenced most of the time, that or cuz he is mechanical or smth,
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:15 am

Treck wrote:I think he means SD procc = Souldrinker procc not Sacred Duty.

That last sentence was a separate thought. My point was that the DPS estimates are heavily influenced by rotation, which includes SotR crits from Sacred Duty. I don't know whether resilience has any effect on SD-induced SotR crits, and thus whether the DPS values are at all skewed by it.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby econ21 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:00 pm

theckhd wrote:My point was that the DPS estimates are heavily influenced by rotation, which includes SotR crits from Sacred Duty.


I guess I should look at recount stats to see how the pattern of damage by spell differs in PvP compared to PvE. I suspect "ranged" damage (J, AS, HoW to an extent) may be more important and auto-attack less, as players are not as obliging as mobs when it comes to standing still and letting melee wail on them.

From what I read, crits (and esp. SotR crits from fishing for SD procs) may also be more important in PvP as the idea is often to burst down an opponent before they can be healed.

I have no idea what any of that would imply for a SD vs higher tier PvP weapon comparison though and was wondering if anyone else would care to speculate. I guess if auto-attacks are less important in PvP, that may be the detriment of the PVP weapon as its strongpoint is higher base damage and that matters more for auto-attacks than for most other abilities (I think).

The PvP weapon does come with some crit but I guess that's small potatoes and maybe the SD proc is itself a kind of burst damage that is valuable in PvP.
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Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:43 am

SD proc may help with burst, but it's not reliable. You can't really plan burst around it, it just happens (unlike activated trinkets/abilities.) If you want reliable burst, I'd probably go for the higher dps PvP weap.
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