Remove Advertisements

Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Jaitee » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:39 pm

Treck wrote:Im not doubting your observation, i just havnt seen those numbers, granted, ive been observing the effects on a warrior tank (as i dont have one myself)
The dmg seems to be a bit more around 3% from what ive seen.
Maybe paladins have a higher procrate or smth?
Altho even with 3% procrate, that basicly means that you heal yourself for 6% of the dmg you do, but procbased isnt very reliable.
In any case, i dont have either, and i dont see myself getting hand of morchock over the dpsers, and going for DW heroic pretty fast anyway, so betting it will be the next weapon anyway, unless the procc is OP for dps?! :P



i think its probably higher for paladins due too reckoning also possible more of our things might proc it its amazing on cleave fights too since AS will proc it of all 3 targets if you get lucky

and ive heard its BiS for DW frost DKs but since unholy is ment to be a few K dps more i think most will switch to that and go for the tentacle axe

and im not sure who it would do more damage in the hands of a tank where it will do more damage per proc or a frost dk who get alot more hits in
Jaitee
 
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:11 am

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:28 am

It's presumably affected by Divinity, possibly even double-dipping. We had one drop for us last week, so I should have logs to scrutinize this weekend.

I'm with Khira on this one; at first I was pretty skeptical about a proc-based weapon, but the proc rate seems high enough (15% i what I've heard quoted) with no apparent ICD and a fairly large effect (10k heals are pretty beastly, and as Khira's log shows it can crit).

There's definitely an argument to be had about proc-based healing versus more stamina (vs. avoidance, in some cases). We've had that discussion before regarding SoI, or the Judgement glyph. But this effect is quite a bit stronger than either of those, which makes it a more interesting test case. In my opinion, based on the evidence I've seen so far, the Souldrinker proc is large enough to tip the scales towards it being more valuable than the stam you give up (~40 for equal ilvl HoM, plus maybe 60 or so to make up for CTC).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby lythac » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:34 am

theckhd wrote:(15% i what I've heard quoted) with no apparent ICD.


Item - Dragon Soul - Proc - Str Tank Sword LFR
Item - Dragon Soul - Proc - Str Tank Sword
Item - Dragon Soul - Proc - Str Tank Sword Heroic

15% proc chance and doesn't show an ICD.
Ryshad / Lythac of <Heretic> Nagrand-EU
User avatar
lythac
Moderator
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Epimer » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:24 am

I wonder if Glyph of Seal of Insight interacts with the proc.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:50 am

theckhd wrote:(10k heals are pretty beastly, and as Khira's log shows it can crit).


Minor correction. It can't actually crit.
Kihra
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:13 am

Epimer wrote:I wonder if Glyph of Seal of Insight interacts with the proc.


Edit: one sec, was looking at damage done vs heal received
Edit edit: hahaha was trying to figure out why the proc wasn't healing on target dummies. Derp.

Edit edit edit:

At 200,595 base hp
w/o Glyphed SoI Damage: 3009, Heal: 6379
w/Glyphed SoI Damage: 3009, Heal: 6379

So no, doesn't look like it.

It does look like it benefits from Divinity, as 200595 * 0.015 * 2 * 1.06 = 6378.921

I suspect it does interact with various "increase healing received" buffs, judging from the range of values from last night's logs:
Code: Select all
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +8547
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +8486
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +8484
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +8238
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7771
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7769
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7714
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7712
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7629
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7545
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7542
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7489
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7487
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7195
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +7142
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +6936
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +6934
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +18513
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +15890
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +14444
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +13577
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +13574
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +12728
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +11573
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +11570
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 17095)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 15541)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 15541)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 12435)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 12435)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 12431)
Shadowyn Drain Life Shadowyn +0 (O: 12431)
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +9908
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +9906
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +9402
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +8821
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +8632
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +8547
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7958
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7780
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7771
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7769
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7642
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +7195
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +10256
Shadowyn Drain Life  Shadowyn +10012


The log is here if anyone wants to dig around. The logs include a full clear of LFR and the first 3 in 25N.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:54 am, edited 6 times in total.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5085
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:24 am

Kihra wrote:
theckhd wrote:(10k heals are pretty beastly, and as Khira's log shows it can crit).


Minor correction. It can't actually crit.


Oh, I see. I misread the quoted log; I thought it was healing for ~10k and critting for 20k. So the baseline heal is ~20k? That's even better than I thought. Though I don't understand how it's getting so high; even at a generous 250k health, that's around a 4% damage proc and an 8% heal. It's either interacting with something in an odd way, or we're missing something.

[23:15:57.744] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +20990
[23:16:00.192] Kihradin Drain Life Arm Tentacle 9863
[23:16:00.192] Kihradin Drain Life Arm Tentacle 9863
[23:16:00.553] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +20909
[23:16:00.553] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +8252 (O: 12657)
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Kihra » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:36 am

theckhd wrote:
Kihra wrote:
theckhd wrote:(10k heals are pretty beastly, and as Khira's log shows it can crit).


Minor correction. It can't actually crit.


Oh, I see. I misread the quoted log; I thought it was healing for ~10k and critting for 20k. So the baseline heal is ~20k? That's even better than I thought. Though I don't understand how it's getting so high; even at a generous 250k health, that's around a 4% damage proc and an 8% heal. It's either interacting with something in an odd way, or we're missing something.

[23:15:57.744] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +20990
[23:16:00.192] Kihradin Drain Life Arm Tentacle 9863
[23:16:00.192] Kihradin Drain Life Arm Tentacle 9863
[23:16:00.553] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +20909
[23:16:00.553] Kihradin Drain Life Kihradin +8252 (O: 12657)


10k is the typical fully stacked heal. The 20k numbers are on the Madness fight where it benefits from a triple scale. Max health +20%, damage done +20%, healing done +20%.
Kihra
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby daishan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:56 am

I just had a quick bash on a dummy self buffed with 203k hp, drain life was healing for 6461, with seal of insight glyphed it was healing for 6979.
I'll be raiding tonight and will try to post logs for anyone interested.
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:02 pm

daishan wrote:I just had a quick bash on a dummy self buffed with 203k hp, drain life was healing for 6461, with seal of insight glyphed it was healing for 6979.
I'll be raiding tonight and will try to post logs for anyone interested.


Hmm. I can't replicate this. I'm getting the same Drain Life heal with or without the glyph, with or without the seal, or any seal or any glyph.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5085
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:11 pm

Kihra wrote:10k is the typical fully stacked heal. The 20k numbers are on the Madness fight where it benefits from a triple scale. Max health +20%, damage done +20%, healing done +20%.

Makes sense. Still, 10k is a pretty reasonable heal.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Call to Arms 5.x, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7655
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Valour » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:15 pm

My initial reaction was similar to many of yours. I saw Souldrinker for the first time and thought "Oh, what the hell?"

Now, like many of you, I'm reconsidering my position. I'm in agreement with Theck and Khira.

Remember, the key is to combine short-term thinking with long-term thinking.

Short-term, sure I can see arguments why as we're still in mostly FL heroic gear that we don't feel comfortable giving up CTC for this proc. It's arguable, and I have a feeling Souldrinker is still worth it anyway, but it's clear the argument could go either way.

But, here's the real consideration: long term thinking. Imagine yourself with mostly DS heroic gear on. You're going to be loaded up to hell with so much mastery that you'll be dumping it off everywhere. There's even a good chance that running with Dual-stam trinkets won't be optimal, because let's face it, that mastery proc is completely absurd for us Tankadins. If that's the case, you might still be using a Mastery trinket, which will only further the need for dumping it everywhere you can.

And here we see the scenario where Souldrinker is a very strong choice over other potential weapons. If you already have stamina gems in basically every socket, and you're already dumping Mastery, getting some extra CTC will be useless, and getting some extra avoidance will be marginally attractive at best. Plenty of situations (Tetanus comes to mind...) illustrate how avoidance can't always save the day, and in such situations there's a much better chance that Souldrinker will save your life instead of some extra avoidance %.

Also, Treckie I'm surprised to see that you don't endorse this weapon, it seems that it's a clear winner in terms of DPS, and I know that you've been avidly supporting bumping our DPS through Exp/Hit in other threads. The proc gives us a nice damage boost and basically matches extra stamina (assuming it procs sometime during a death event), I would think you would love it! :D
Image
Image
Heroic Boss Kill Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/ValourWoW
User avatar
Valour
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby Treck » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:28 pm

Well, actually i just said that it might be more usefull for dpsers.
Also said it does seem to be BiS for tanks, in both ways survival and dps(theres an agi weapon that doesn shadowdmg on procc, anyone care to see how much dps thatone stands for?)
Ive also seemed to have understated the procc a bit in terms of healing, mainly that it doesnt seem to have an internal CD beeing the big one.
Image
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby daishan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:46 pm

Hey, i'm a bit of a nub when it comes to world of logs but here's a parse from earlyer with and without the seal of insight glyph http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0iafztgm71yj0s5o/

As you can see for the 1st couple of minutes Drain Life heals for 6459-6461 then at 17:36:01 i switched to SoI glyph and seal and Drain Life started healing for 6976-6979, the glyph and seal are the only things I changed, i still had 203k hp.
It's more than a 5% buff to the heal so i'm unsure how the glyph is reacting to it.

Code: Select all
[17:32:56.372] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:04.349] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:09.533] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:33:22.774] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:33:56.533] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:07.068] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:07.068] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:34:50.030] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6461)
[17:34:58.894] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6459)
[17:36:01.147] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6976)
[17:36:32.115] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:35.114] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:35.829] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6979)
[17:36:40.210] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:43.059] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:45.454] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:36:53.496] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:01.124] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:03.544] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:04.327] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6979)
[17:37:06.326] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:09.110] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:14.321] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:19.357] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:22.128] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:22.846] Daishan Drain Life Daishan +0 (O: 6976)
[17:37:24.680] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:32.488] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:37.688] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:42.905] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:48.144] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
[17:37:50.988] Daishan Seal of Insight Daishan +0 (O: 1906)
Last edited by daishan on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daishan of <Nidor Amo Nex>
"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it." -- Terry Pratchett
User avatar
daishan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: UK

Re: Souldrinker vs. Hand of Morchok

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:18 pm

That's really odd. Here's a log I took earlier when trying to replicate your results: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7lit ... rw15l/log/

Can we get a third party to run some tests? I'm going to dig some more.
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5085
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Gear Discussions and Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest