Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

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Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby TankYouVeryMuch » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:13 pm

Whats up all? First off, I just hit 85, new to tank and new to Cata. But not new to WoW. Took a break mid WotLK after doing heavy raiding since WotLK release. So I do have a little experience.

A few dungeons ago (heroics) threat issues actually weren't too bad and manageable. Now that I am getting new gear heavy w/ mastery and replacing it with gear that had expertise / hit, I am starting to have threat issues and many unhappy healers / groups. I might just be a bad tank? But it wasn't this bad before.

Also, I may have done a little too much reforging.

http://armorylite.com/us/nordrassil/Rawnocut

For more detailed stats: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/n ... cut/simple
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby Jeremoot » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:28 pm

With the recent changes to threat, if you're having trouble holding the mobs I suggest you attack them.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby TankYouVeryMuch » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:37 pm

Jeremoot wrote:With the recent changes to threat, if you're having trouble holding the mobs I suggest you attack them.


Brilliant.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby svedka » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:50 pm

A bit more gearing will net more str along with swapping in CS or hammer of righteous glyph.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby Staatt » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:09 am

Be sure that you're using inquisition when you're AoE tanking. If you want to get an easy threat lead out of the gate, you can divine plea -> inquisition + wings and then go after it.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:51 am

TankYouVeryMuch wrote:Whats up all? First off, I just hit 85, new to tank and new to Cata. ... I am starting to have threat issues and many unhappy healers / groups. I might just be a bad tank? But it wasn't this bad before.


I suspect that it is being new to tanking and new to Cata that is the issue, not the lack of exp/hit. Cataclysm heroics are not easy to tank for the first time, especially not for some geared for them as opposed to overgeared. The fact that you are running with impatient, bored overgeared dps and healers will only exacerbate the discomfort for you. The only solution is probably just practice - it will get easier, as you get more familiar with the pulls, and as you gear up.

In terms of gearing, there's nothing wrong in getting hit and expertise in 5 mans. I suspect it is optimal. What you want to look for are mastery + threat pieces. For raid bosses, you would want to reforge the threat (if you can't get mastery + avoidance pieces). But for 5 mans, the gain to survivability will be very small and the gain to threat from not reforging may be non-negligible. In 5 man's, I suspect the threat problems come from early in trash pulls. As the first person to reply said, you need to hit things - if you are missing, being dodged or parried, you ain't hitting. Check out Digren's gear guide, but I recall some easy to get mastery + threat items - the Ramkahen bracers, the red rock band, a helm with mastery/expertise etc. Also, I wear licence to slay for 5 mans - expertise is quite easy to get, but hit is harder and that trinket has a lot. You only need to gear for level 85 opponents so about 20 expertise and 5% hit would be enough for 5 man trash.

Last piece of advice: pull Wotlk style. Run into a crowd of mobs, judging, shielding, consecrating, Holy Wrathing, popping wings etc. Be ultra aggressive. Your healers won't bitch about you not holding threat if you do that. They'll be too busy trying to keep you up. :twisted:
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby TankYouVeryMuch » Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:30 am

Thanks for everyone's input. I appreciate it very much.

Thing's have been getting better on the aggro side. Next big issue is, I am noticing that I lack in DPS severely. Topping out at around 7k on heroics. Is this normal for my gearing?

I am able to enter ZA and ZG, but if my DPS stays at this, I refuse to beat others and my self up until I figure something out.

I have made some upgrades since my last posting.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=70939

http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56428

http://www.wowhead.com/item=56459
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby yappo » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:39 am

TankYouVeryMuch wrote:Thanks for everyone's input. I appreciate it very much.

Thing's have been getting better on the aggro side. Next big issue is, I am noticing that I lack in DPS severely. Topping out at around 7k on heroics. Is this normal for my gearing?

I am able to enter ZA and ZG, but if my DPS stays at this, I refuse to beat others and my self up until I figure something out.


Topping at 7k is very low for your gear (if you indeed refer to the very maximum dps you get for a fight, probably involving AoE). You should expect maybe 6k for a boss-fight and up to 10 - 12k for a trash fight with lots of targets.

The 'old' heroics should yield you lots of JP to build up gear. I'd advice you to do that before hitting the trolls. Your gear is indeed enough to tank those with a good team, but the LFD will give you anything but a good team taking your lower survivability into consideration. The trolls hit HARD. We're not talking absurd upgrades, but aim for a 350:ish ilevel before you hit them.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby econ21 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:12 am

TankYouVeryMuch wrote:Next big issue is, I am noticing that I lack in DPS severely. Topping out at around 7k on heroics. Is this normal for my gearing?


I always look at my dps in heroics, but it is totally an indulgence. No one is going to kick you or even bad mouth you as a tank for low dps in a 5 man. It is not a big issue. You are supposed to (a) keep aggro; and (b) stay alive. Contributing to party dps is a very low (c). I am not sure 7k is that low for your gear if it is instance average. I find raid geared co-tanks in BH PUGS seem to do something like that (single target fights) - I typically have to toggle off righteous fury to allow me to keep hitting with ripping aggro. Make sure your wings are seldom on cooldown, follow your rotation and so long as you keeping aggro, don't sweat it.

I am able to enter ZA and ZG, ...


The Zuls maybe exceptions to what I was saying about it being optimal to look at threat for 5 mans. Sometimes I wear my raid gear if I am not sure of the healer. As Yappo says, stuff there hits hard. If you go in new to tanking and new to Zuls wearing an ilevel 300 helm, PUGS will bully you. So while at itemlevel 349 you are objectively geared for the Zuls, I would replace a few more pieces of gear before pugging it. (Guild runs would be fine). Look to replace the agility trinket too - run Tol Barad dailies for the Mirror of Broken Images would be my recommendation.

All that said, the Zuls exemplify my point about the trick being experience rather than gear. Zul Gurub is like a regular heroic if everyone knows boss tactics (it can be excruciating if two or more don't) - make sure you at least do. Zul Aman is more of a gear check imo, but again has some very specific boss tactics you must know and has some tricky trash pulls early on. Look for some guides or videos for ZA bear runs to find out.
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Re: Threat issues, low lvl gear, too much mastery right now?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:46 pm

TankYouVeryMuch wrote:Thing's have been getting better on the aggro side. Next big issue is, I am noticing that I lack in DPS severely. Topping out at around 7k on heroics. Is this normal for my gearing?

I am able to enter ZA and ZG, but if my DPS stays at this, I refuse to beat others and my self up until I figure something out.


If you can get into Zuls, I imagine your gear is fine, and will only improve. (I'm assuming that your int gear that your armory link shows is not what you use to tank in.) Let's talk about your pull tactics. I make sure that I have a definite plan before each pull, and consider it my mission to Win the Omen Meter on every mob in existence, all the time. (Though obviously not in a raid when trash should be split. ;))

Questions to ponder...

These are some questions that I'm sure all of the experienced tanks here could answer in varying detail -- both in terms of what their tactic is and why. Some of these are leading, and likely have answers that you already know, but you might not be putting all of that knowledge into practice.

  • Do you mark a Skull target for people to focus their threat on? We can front load a lot of threat on the pull, even without Inquisition, so you can often temporarily ignore the skull in order to put enough threat on everything else that they won't mind people cleaving.
  • Have you mastered the basic 939 rotation?
  • Do you use (3-target) Avenger's Shield every time it procs (while making sure not to waste CS or ShoR opportunities)?
  • When do you use Divine Plea and/or Inquisition?
  • When do you choose to use Hammer of Righteousness instead of Crusader Strike? What guides this choice?
  • How often do you change targets during a pull?
  • Do you use Tidy Plates? (If not, you should. Go do it. Now.)
  • When is it OK to lose threat on a target?
  • When do you taunt?

My answers to some of this...

For example, when I see a pull of more than one mob, I mark a skull, front-load DPS by doing Exo->(inq)->AS, and then put something on the other one with a judgement or crusader strike. In groups, I often exorcise one target, and then shield toss a different one, and judge a 5th. I use Hammer liberally early on, rather than CS, so that I get initial snap threat on things. I use inquisition at the start, as snap threat is more important to me than long term DPS (using it after Vengeance stacks up). When something is almost dead, I'm often OK with losing threat on it to the mage, and I take extra care to do more AOE threat when I have a DK in the party.

I often disregard a fair amount of the 939 rotation at the start in order to get damage on the entire pull -- I'll often go AS->Judge to get threat on 4 things, and then use Cons as my filler in my normal rotation's first iteration. I frequently start a pull with Exorcism, despite it not seeming like much of a TPS increase over INQ->AS->CS, simply because DPS tend to start up their pew-pew rockets as soon as the boss targets me, and having (Exo+AS)'s threat on the target rather than merely Avenger's Shield's threat is handy. That said, for long term damage you really want to be mindful of the rotation, and find convenient times to use Wings. (I don't use it on the pull, though arguably that's the most important time to do it.)

Also, don't be afraid to ask for CC. Your gear may support it, but it also has the side effect of letting you put threat on fewer targets at once, and then taunt->AS or taunt->judge (or taunt->ShoR) the sheep when you're ready for it.

I think it's critically important that my goal is to have a commanding threat lead on every single mob, and their mothers, despite my mage's constant efforts to suicide by excessive threat. Tidy Plates helps me monitor the garden of hate, and quickly see when things are slipping away, but mainly it boils down to: Do the 939 rotation, tab target relatively frequently. Of course I care about survival too, but that dominates relatively little of my attention compared to the constant fun of maintaining threat.
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