All Things Mr. Robot!

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Sabindeus, Aergis, lythac, Digren, majiben

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby NYRIN1 » Thu May 19, 2011 2:01 pm

theothersteve7 wrote:Mastery is just flat better than parry and dodge for tankadins. Reforging all your gear to mastery gives you an enormous survivability boost that you'd have to be uninformed not to take. I'd say it's more important than enchanting.

The optimizer presumably favors parry over dodge for you because you have a whole lot of dodge on your gear. Dodge and parry have diminishing returns, meaning the more of each you have, the less you get per point of rating. However, they don't care how much the other one has. As an example, you you have no dodge and 30% parry, one point of parry rating is going to give you much less avoidance than one dodge rating. It's not an enormous difference for normal gear, however. Ignoring this altogether might cost you a fraction of a percent of avoidance.



It favors parry because of DR yes, But its because it also knows you will be getting raid buffs. If you look at the "show stats" tab - there is "unbuffed" and "raid buffed". You will see that you get more buffs to your dodge than your parry so you want to be a bit more parry heavy in the reforging to compensate for the DR.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/stormreaver/nyrin
Image
User avatar
NYRIN1
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Miami

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:27 am

So I've been using Ask Mr Robot for my reforging, and I noticed that it says the Heroic Porcelain Crab (from H ToT, 346 blue) is best in slot, even at heroic raid level. How does it come to that conclusion?
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4773
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Flex » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:42 am

Quick guess being the massive mastery proc.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby NYRIN1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:52 am

Flex wrote:Quick guess being the massive mastery proc.


you would be correct
Image
User avatar
NYRIN1
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:21 am
Location: Miami

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:58 am

Does the optimiser account for block capping at all?
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4773
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Firann » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:16 am

While changing stamina to 67 as Theck suggested makes the geming / enchanting more stamina heavy, a third option would be to leave stamina at 66 and drop mastery to 99 (from 100). This ends up in proposing mastery/stam gems all around for blue and yellow sockets for those who prefer the middle of the road :)
Firann
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby boneyjellyfish » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:08 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Does the optimiser account for block capping at all?

I can't imagine it does, since a lot of the mastery from the porcelain crab proc would be completely wasted if it's used by anyone that gears properly.
boneyjellyfish
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:59 am

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby econ21 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:29 am

Can anyone explain to me how we should balance parry and dodge? After optimising my gear, Mr Robot's leaves me at have 13.47% parry and 12.6% dodge after raid buffs. I thought we were aiming for equal dodge and parry for diminishing returns?

Looking at my unoptimised gear, it seems from Mr Robot that raid buffs add 2% dodge and 1.14% parry. So I infer I should aim for unbuffed 10.6% dodge and 12.33% parry.

This is rather different from the rules of thumb I thought I had picked up from this forum - I thought it was go for about 1% higher parry unbuffed, rather than 1.73%.

I'm confused and would rather be able to work this out myself, rather than rely on Mr Robot (although it is a pretty amazing tool), if only to save on reforging costs.
econ21
 
Posts: 1217
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Digren » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:42 am

econ21 wrote:Can anyone explain to me how we should balance parry and dodge? After optimising my gear, Mr Robot's leaves me at have 13.47% parry and 12.6% dodge after raid buffs. I thought we were aiming for equal dodge and parry for diminishing returns?

Looking at my unoptimised gear, it seems from Mr Robot that raid buffs add 2% dodge and 1.14% parry. So I infer I should aim for unbuffed 10.6% dodge and 12.33% parry.

This is rather different from the rules of thumb I thought I had picked up from this forum - I thought it was go for about 1% higher parry unbuffed, rather than 1.73%.

I'm confused and would rather be able to work this out myself, rather than rely on Mr Robot (although it is a pretty amazing tool), if only to save on reforging costs.

It's only equal dodge and parry after 4.2 when the baseline amount of both not subject to diminishing returns will be equal.

Until then, even raid buffed, you need different amounts of both to be at the same places on the diminishing returns curves.

Take a look at the Tabular Mastery / Avoidance Equivalence Tables I created a few weeks back. I did this to "unroll" the math so-to-speak, making it possible for anyone to see the data and figure out equivalent points themselves.

The key point is that only 3.9705% of your dodge is not subject to diminishing returns, while 5% of your parry is not. Thus when you are at equal points on the DR curves you will have more parry than dodge.

You can see this on my tables. On the dodge table, at 12.6% dodge it takes 2.811 additional dodge rating to gain the same amount of combat table coverage as one mastery rating. On the parry table, at 13.6% parry it takes about the same (2.808 additional parry rating) to gain the same amount of combat table coverage as one mastery rating. Even though you have a full percent more parry, you are at the same place on each DR curve.

If you were balanced to be even, though, at 12.6% parry it takes only 2.712 additional parry rating for the same CTC as 1 mastery rating. Clearly at this point someone on the parry DR curve isn't as far along, because they are gaining more value per point.

In short: raid buffed, ~1.03% more parry than dodge is optimal.
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 1401
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:28 pm

A friend showed the site askmrrobot.com to me a little while back and I noticed that for prot pallies the stat weightings are off, so its not very accurate. It shows dodge and parry being above mastery for reducing damage, so it tells me that a lot of my gear is sub optimal. It seems you can adjust the stat weights though, but I have no idea what to set them to. Does anyone know what they should be?

Also, does anyone know if the stat weightings it uses for ret are correct? It'd be awesome to be able to use it to optimize my dps spec as well.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Thanistor » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:37 pm

Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.
I think he said bump stamina up by one if you want it to favor stamina more for hard modes.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.
Thanistor
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby halabar » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:53 pm

I use that site for other classes as well.

What you have to remember is that when looking at individual gear comparisons, some stats (like hit for dps classes) can be weighted too heavily.

But it does work as a very nice reference to at least get you in the ballpark.
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
User avatar
halabar
 
Posts: 6557
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:21 am
Location: <in the guild that shall not be named>

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:02 pm

Thanistor wrote:Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.


I can't seem to find any posts from Theck that deal with mitigation (only the threat thread), but I thought that mastery was point for point better than dodge and parry for reducing incoming damage?
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:51 pm

Arees wrote:
Thanistor wrote:Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.


I can't seem to find any posts from Theck that deal with mitigation (only the threat thread), but I thought that mastery was point for point better than dodge and parry for reducing incoming damage?


Their weightings are chosen for overall damage reduction, and are calculated directly from the equations in the Derivations thread.

Dodge and parry are better than mastery for reducing damage before diminishing returns comes in, which is why their weightings have them at the top. Their program calculates the diminishing returns on dodge and parry for you, so it properly devalues them as you get more. That's why, for example, it's suggesting mastery gems rather than dodge gems.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:29 pm

Ok... I see what it's doing now I suppose. My next question, which probably belongs in the gearing sections, but since I've already got this thread started I'll ask it here. Askmrrobot is saying to gem straight mastery in yellow slots and stam/mastery in blue. I've been doing the exact opposite and I gem stam in blue and stam/mastery in yellow (and stam/parry in red if the bonus is good). It also says to replace my 40 stam wrist enchant with 50 dodge rating. Is that a smart way to gem? I can't check your armory theck... you logged out in ret gear :(

I've been away from the game since January and am just now coming back. I'm trying to get some of the ZA/ZG gear and get caught up with my guild. We've only just fully cleared all 12 bosses and are just starting on heroic mode early bosses.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:49 am

It's tough to say; I'm of the opinion that Stamina comes into its own on the heroic bosses, but not everyone shares that opinion. As a tank, trying to "catch up" probably means you're a little undergeared and vulnerable to burst, so I'd lean towards a stam-heavy itemization based on that as well. It will also depend on your healers - if they outgear you that much and play well, then they shouldn't have trouble running OOM either way, so stam-heavy is probably safer. But the only way to know for sure is to try it and see what your death logs look like.

Mr. Robot's defaults are pretty tightly tuned. If you bump the Stamina weighting up by one point (66->67), it should start suggesting the gemming strategy you're using (stam in blue, stam/parry in red, stam/mast in yellow).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: askmrrobot

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:21 am

Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.
yappo
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:14 am

Thanks theck. I wish at the bottom of the optimized gems/enchants it told me net gain and loss of changing all that would be. Like you get -7,503hp but get +6% block or something like that. I think though I'm going to stick with the gemming strategy I'm using now and see how that works heading into Firelands since that's just right around the corner.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:58 am

yappo wrote:Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.

That could have something to do with the fact that it doesn't weight resistance, and it probably treats the Darkmoon Card on-use like some average amount of stamina. Trinkets are also one of Mr. Robot's weak points, I'm not sure it does much in the way of modeling on-use on proc abilities. You're probably better off ignoring its trinket suggestions. I've yet to find a significant error with it's gemming/enchanting/reforging algorithms though, so it's an excellent tool for optimizing the gear set you're wearing.

Arees wrote:Thanks theck. I wish at the bottom of the optimized gems/enchants it told me net gain and loss of changing all that would be. Like you get -7,503hp but get +6% block or something like that. I think though I'm going to stick with the gemming strategy I'm using now and see how that works heading into Firelands since that's just right around the corner.

It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6205
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: askmrrobot

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:35 am

theckhd wrote:
yappo wrote:Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.

That could have something to do with the fact that it doesn't weight resistance, and it probably treats the Darkmoon Card on-use like some average amount of stamina. Trinkets are also one of Mr. Robot's weak points, I'm not sure it does much in the way of modeling on-use on proc abilities. You're probably better off ignoring its trinket suggestions. I've yet to find a significant error with it's gemming/enchanting/reforging algorithms though, so it's an excellent tool for optimizing the gear set you're wearing.


It does SOME modeling on the on-use. The agi on-use trink is rated higher than the strength on-use, which is perfectly understandable if you prioritize staying alive. Both those trinkets are rated above the darkmoon card, which also makes sense. It's just the Mirror that pretty much is ranked as a bad trinket (which reason you just explained to me).
yappo
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.


Ah thanks, I didn't even see that. So lets see, if I gem the way it wants me to then I gain 2.13 mastery and lose 11.4k hp raid buffed. I lose 0.4% dodge, but gain 0.8% parry so my total avoidance will go up by 0.4%. It also says I'll lose 701 armor; it thinks I should use the stam/BV meta gem. I thought that the armor meta was better for reducing incoming damage.

I'm not sure how much block chance 2.13 mastery is, but I think it's 2.5% per point of mastery right? So its a gain of 5% block, 0.4% avoidance but a loss of 11.4k hp and 700 armor. I'm not really sure its worth the trade off.

It's definitely an interesting web site. I'm going to use it to optimize my ret gear too, which is largely unenchanted, ungemmed, and unreforged. Does it know to stop suggesting hit/exp when you reach the caps?
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Volitaire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:48 am

Yes it does know where the caps are and takes them into account.
<Blood Runs Cold> - Stormrage(US) Alliance 10-man 13/13HM
Late Night 12am-3am EST Tues-Thurs, Sunday
Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/volitaire
Website: http://bloodrunscold.enjin.com
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/Hamstring2568
Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/s ... ire/simple
Volitaire
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:54 am

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Digren » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:37 am

Arees wrote:
theckhd wrote:It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.


Ah thanks, I didn't even see that. So lets see, if I gem the way it wants me to then I gain 2.13 mastery and lose 11.4k hp raid buffed. I lose 0.4% dodge, but gain 0.8% parry so my total avoidance will go up by 0.4%. It also says I'll lose 701 armor; it thinks I should use the stam/BV meta gem. I thought that the armor meta was better for reducing incoming damage.

I'm not sure how much block chance 2.13 mastery is, but I think it's 2.5% per point of mastery right? So its a gain of 5% block, 0.4% avoidance but a loss of 11.4k hp and 700 armor. I'm not really sure its worth the trade off.

It's definitely an interesting web site. I'm going to use it to optimize my ret gear too, which is largely unenchanted, ungemmed, and unreforged. Does it know to stop suggesting hit/exp when you reach the caps?

The block value meta is better once you have at least 85% or so combat table coverage. The addition of about 5.4% ctc with the other changes it suggests likely puts you over that threshold, if you aren't already.

If you want to maximize combat table coverage, then its suggestions sound correct. If you don't like it's suggestions and instead want a health pad (which you may or may not actually need), then tweak it's stamina/mastery ratio by a point (from 0.67 sta : mastery to 0.66 sta : mastery) and it should instead suggest a stamina-heavy strategy. Then you'll get what you want.
User avatar
Digren
Moderator
 
Posts: 1401
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby warden » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:41 pm

The ret stat weights are close, but not perfect; use with caution. The tool itself, given the correct stat weights, is perfect. I STRONGLY recommend, if you want to use this to optimize your dps, use simcraft to determine your exact stat weights, plug in those, and optimize. It is a bit more work, but much more accurate. I use it for my reforging as ret, but I tweak the stat weights by hand first.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:50 pm

Digren wrote:The block value meta is better once you have at least 85% or so combat table coverage. The addition of about 5.4% ctc with the other changes it suggests likely puts you over that threshold, if you aren't already.


Ok, I didn't realize that. Thanks for the info. This brings up a question though... I remember the developers talking before cataclysm hit about each tier the bosses will need more hit/exp to cap than previous tiers. I think it was also said that bosses might get expertise. I haven't read anything about this being the case on the PTR though. If the bosses get exp that would decrease our ctc.
Image
User avatar
Arees
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Next

Return to Gear Discussions and Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest