Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

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Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Valore » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:08 am

I just bought Helm of the Proud to replace my Crown of Wings based on the recommendations on many threads here.

But... when I equip it, my avoidance coverage drops from 73.10% to 72.99% and lose 4 Expertise. Only to gain about 1300 health. In both items, I reforged Dodge -> Mastery.

Here's a wowhead comparison. But it only goes to 80 and doesn't show reforged, so see code below.
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=58 ... 2294.52215

The reforged stats are:
Code: Select all
Crown of Wings/Grinning Fang Helm                   Helm of the Proud
+196 Strength                                       +302 Strength
+454 Stamina                                        +454 Stamina
Red Socket: +20 Parry and +20 Mastery               Yellow Socket: +20 Mastery and +30 Stamina
Socket Bonus: +30 Dodge Rating                      Socket Bonus: +45 Stamina
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 146           Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 86
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 137       Equip: Increases your parry rating by 142
Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 96          Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 56

Helm of the Proud gives 75 sta, 122 parry, 106 str
Crown of Wings gives 40 mastery, 90 dodge, 137 expertise

Also, I only have a green gem in my Crown of Wings and it still seems better! What gives?


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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:44 am

Starting with your numbers. Actually I disagree with them because there's no reason to reforge the dodge rating on the Crown of Wings, when there is expertise to reforge instead. But using them anyway:

Helm of the Proud gives 75 sta, 122 parry, 106 str
Crown of Wings gives 40 mastery, 90 dodge, 137 expertise


Well you don't need the expertise so ignore that. You don't need the threat portion of strength either, but 106 strength provides about the equivalent of 26.5 parry rating. So really the comparison is:

Helm of the Proud: 75 sta, 148.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 40 mastery rating, 90 dodge rating


Assuming you keep dodge and parry properly balanced, you can consider them equivalent. So really the comparison is:

Helm of the Proud: 75 sta, 58.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 40 mastery rating


Yes, in terms of combat table coverage, 40 mastery rating provides more coverage than 58.5 parry rating. However, you are relying on that macro as your only source of information regarding the combat table. You should also note that 58.5 parry rating results in less total damage taken than 40 mastery rating. Combat table coverage isn't everything; the macro is just a tool, and one that I've noticed is being relied upon too heavily.

Thus, the Helm of the Proud offers more combat table survivability than the Crown of Wings. It also provides 1331 more health. Hence, I say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby yappo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:33 am

Digren wrote:
Yes, in terms of combat table coverage, 40 mastery rating provides more coverage than 58.5 parry rating. However, you are relying on that macro as your only source of information regarding the combat table. You should also note that 58.5 parry rating results in less total damage taken than 40 mastery rating. Combat table coverage isn't everything; the macro is just a tool, and one that I've noticed is being relied upon too heavily.


Hmm.

I think I saw a comparision between 114 mastery and 132 avoidance (parry or dodge) in another thread. If percentages are to be used, then the difference between 114 and 132 is less than 40 and 58.5.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Maelsstrom » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:53 am

Digren wrote:
Helm of the Proud: 75 sta, 58.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 40 mastery rating
I agree with your conclusion and it gets better. The gems assumed at the top of the page are a red/yellow in the red socket and blue/yellow in the yellow socket. Something's wrong here. If you believe mastery is most desirable, you should have pure mastery in the other slot, which yields the following:
Helm of the Proud: 45 sta, 58.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 20 mastery rating

..at which point there's clearly only one choice.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:00 pm

yappo wrote:
Digren wrote:
Yes, in terms of combat table coverage, 40 mastery rating provides more coverage than 58.5 parry rating. However, you are relying on that macro as your only source of information regarding the combat table. You should also note that 58.5 parry rating results in less total damage taken than 40 mastery rating. Combat table coverage isn't everything; the macro is just a tool, and one that I've noticed is being relied upon too heavily.


Hmm.

I think I saw a comparision between 114 mastery and 132 avoidance (parry or dodge) in another thread. If percentages are to be used, then the difference between 114 and 132 is less than 40 and 58.5.

That was me here, when I worked through all the brutal math once just to make sure I could do it.

That case was for a comparison between raid-level items, and used starting avoidance diminishing returns based on a raider. As I noted in that thread, 114 to 132 is what I found for a raider; Theck's example math using a pre-raider set (such as one with Helm of the Proud or Crown of Wings) would have less diminishing returns, and thus the comparison is closer to 122 mastery rating is equivalent to 132 avoidance.

Either way, though, the "lesser" piece is the one with mastery rating. If it takes between 114-122 mastery rating to equal the damage reduction of 132 avoidance rating, then it takes between 50.5-54 mastery rating to equal the damage reduction of 58.5 avoidance rating. (Divide both sides of the equality by 2.256.) The Crown of Wings as gemmed and reforged only has a 40 mastery rating bonus, and thus is insufficient in either model.

*Note that the original poster's assumptions reforged the dodge rating for mastery rating on the Crown of Wings, leaving the expertise untouched. A better comparison would be to reforge the expertise rating, giving the Crown of Wings 41 less mastery rating but 96 more avoidance rating - a significant reduction in damage taken. In that model, mastery is pretty much equal between the two options, and it comes down to 38 avoidance rating for the CoW and 75 stamina + 1 mastery rating for the HotP. Again, I'd suggest the HotP is better again, though that depends on one's desire for stamina.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:04 pm

Maelsstrom wrote:
Digren wrote:
Helm of the Proud: 75 sta, 58.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 40 mastery rating
I agree with your conclusion and it gets better. The gems assumed at the top of the page are a red/yellow in the red socket and blue/yellow in the yellow socket. Something's wrong here. If you believe mastery is most desirable, you should have pure mastery in the other slot, which yields the following:
Helm of the Proud: 45 sta, 58.5 parry rating
Crown of Wings: 20 mastery rating

..at which point there's clearly only one choice.

Well, if you believe mastery is most desirable, then 20 mastery is better than 58.5 parry rating. The math for gearing towards CTC leads to valuation of avoidance rating at just 7.5% of the value of mastery rating.

However, I don't believe anyone actually believes mastery rating / CTC is most desirable. Even people who say they do - and people who follow Tankspot's gem model using pure mastery gems - are simply using a model which splits the difference between minimizing damage taken and maximizing combat table coverage. I have yet to see anyone take some of the most drastic steps required to favor mastery above all else.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby yappo » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:35 pm

Digren wrote:
yappo wrote:
Digren wrote:
Either way, though, the "lesser" piece is the one with mastery rating. If it takes between 114-122 mastery rating to equal the damage reduction of 132 avoidance rating, then it takes between 50.5-54 mastery rating to equal the damage reduction of 58.5 avoidance rating. (Divide both sides of the equality by 2.256.) The Crown of Wings as gemmed and reforged only has a 40 mastery rating bonus, and thus is insufficient in either model.


And I'm an idiot for not reading fully what I comment on. Sorry.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:42 pm

Digren wrote:Well, if you believe mastery is most desirable, then 20 mastery is better than 58.5 parry rating. The math for gearing towards CTC leads to valuation of avoidance rating at just 7.5% of the value of mastery rating.

That's not a valuation, it's a threshold for choosing which stat to reforge on a combination threat/avoidance item.

I think you're dismissing CTC a little too much here. It may only be one metric, but it's arguably more important than reducing total damage taken. While I'm not convinced that choosing items purely on the basis of CTC is the right way to go, I also don't think that aspiring tankadins should be told to ignore it.

If the difference comes down to 58.5 parry rating or 40 mastery rating, it's a toss-up. One gives you slightly more CTC, one gives you slightly more damage reduction. Both are important, but neither choice in this case is going to make or break you as a tank. I'd probably take a 40 mastery gem over a 60 parry gem if given the choice.

In this case, I'd shove a 40 mastery gem in the yellow socket on Helm of the Proud and use that, because it doesn't waste any of its itemization on expertise. If I had to use Crown of Wings, I'd reforge the expertise to mastery instead of the dodge.

My general rule of thumb is to prioritize items according to this model (before reforging):

(mastery+avoid)>(avoid+avoid)>(threat+mastery)>(threat+avoid)

I then reforge/gem/enchant to try and maximize CTC (ignoring health thresholds for the moment, it seems that 150-155k is plenty fine for heroic modes). Note that this is not going to maximize CTC, it's minimizing threat stats. As such, it's a balanced approach that tries to optimize survivability by increasing both CTC and damage reduction while wasting the least amount of itemization on threat, which improves neither. It may not maximize either CTC or damage reduction compared to other options, but I'd argue it does a better job of increasing your overall survivability. Every point of threat stats on your items is a point that's not helping you survive.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:04 pm

Maybe I'm pushing it a bit too far, and I acknowledge the mistake in my use of the derivation, but this isn't the first time in the last few days that I've seen someone state "Why does everyone claim X is better than Y? The macro clearly returns a bigger number with Y than with X!"

I think that's a dangerous trend, and I would like to divert people away from it and back towards understanding why some pieces of gear are better than others.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:02 pm

The thing is to balance CTC with damage reduction. If you compare a piece that gives you 5% block versus one that gives you 2.5% avoidance, you can't always say the 5% block is better because it has more CTC. The 2.5% avoidance will reduce overall damage more because 40% (block value) of 5% is only 2% damage reduced, not 2.5%.

This is where the damage model becomes very relevant. For burst damage survivability, CTC is very important. For longevity fights where healers will be running out of mana, you want to reduce the amount of healing you require as much as possible.

In my way of thinking, we should reduce the chance of consecutive-full-hit deaths to an acceptable level of risk, then worry about reducing overall damage taken. The chance of CFHD is reduced by avoidance, mitigation, and health. Mitigation and health are the cheapest ways to address it, so should be our first ports-of-call.

But do keep in mind that Bliz has opted for a healing model in which efficiency is important. In my way of thinking, efficiency starts with the tank. If I can take less damage, then healers can cast cheaper spells to keep me up.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby econ21 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:30 am

The discussion on CTC vs damage reduction is interesting. It would be fun to amend the CTC macro to also computer melee damage reduction (MDR) - does anyone know how to code a macro to get the effect of armor?

It seems Digren and I have moved in opposite directions on this. I remember asking in disbelief if anyone enhanced gear for CTC and he said he did. Now, I have started to prioritise CTC over MDR for several reasons. I am still not raiding, so take my experience with a pinch of salt. But one reason is that healers' mana is less of a pressing concern - I think in the early stages, healers were adapting to the new model; they now seem to have learned how to be efficient (or maybe we have just geared up). I used to check my healer's mana bar after every pull, now I am only dimly aware of it. A second reason is that the block cap is looking more achievable - raiders are reaching it with the current gear. Personally, I am about 10 points short, which is closer than I thought I would be before raiding. I think if you are close to the cap, then reaching it and completely removing the risk of an unblocked hit becomes much more attractive than a minor reduction in damage intake. Other reasons include less fear of dying routinely (hence not worrying so much about the average outcome, more focus on the unlucky unblocked hit); and starting to think more about raiding rather than 5 mans (so there will be more dedicated healing but bigger hits to be blocked).

To focus the discussion, perhaps a better helm comparison is Helm of the Proud with Helm of Easeful Death.

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=58098;58103

With excess JPs, I decided to get the ret helm to nudge me further towards CTC. It's not just the mastery vs 2x avoidance; it's also the mastery socket bonus. A harder decision will be whether to spend my precious VPs on the T11 ret legs or the prot ones. I will probably get the prot ones first for the 4 pc (even though I won't have a 4th piece anytime soon!). But as I start raid and hopefully progress, I will eventually buy the ret legs if they can get me to 102.4%, whatever the loss in MDR.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Digren » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:30 am

econ21 wrote:It seems Digren and I have moved in opposite directions on this. I remember asking in disbelief if anyone enhanced gear for CTC and he said he did. Now, I have started to prioritise CTC over MDR for several reasons. I am still not raiding, so take my experience with a pinch of salt.

My impression is that you are transitioning from progression content (heroics in iLvl 333 gear) to farm content (heroics in iLvl 346 or higher gear). Everything I see agrees with you that CTC is better in farm content, because you have better consistency with damage intake, making the instance literally "smoother".

However I don't know that CTC is best if you were to jump back into progression content, where I think stamina and MDR still rule.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:58 am

Digren wrote:However I don't know that CTC is best if you were to jump back into progression content, where I think stamina and MDR still rule.


I think many of us, myself included, have slowly been disabusing ourselves of this notion. While you certainly still need to meet minimum EH thresholds for hard modes, it seems that with full 359 gear you hit this mark automatically just from the stamina on the gear itself and the few enchant slots where stamina is the only option. While reducing damage taken is always good, the difference between 40 mastery and 60 dodge is not going to run your healer out of mana.

In other words, it's not so much that stamina and MDR "rule" in this content, but that if you approach it below gear level, you won't hit the EH threshold. This would have been the case for pretty much every guild pushing heroic modes early on. It would also be the case for players that are attempting content above their gear level (i.e. attempting the first few normal bosses in less than full 346 gear), which could certainly be the case for the majority of raiders out there.

I think as long as you hit the EH threshold though, there's a strong argument for both MDR and CTC. I would argue that CTC is better overall, but there's nothing wrong with trying to increase both where possible.
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Re: Why does everyone say Helm of the Proud > Crown of Wings?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:59 pm

Well, again I think it comes down to the damage model. If you can survive a sufficiently long string of unblocked hits, then you should be working on reducing the number of blocked hits as well.

If you can only survive 2 unblocked hits, then you need to get more CTC to reduce the chance of consecutive unblocked hits. If you can survive 5 unblocked hits, then it's a bit silly to stack more on the off chance your healer will be out of commission that long.

We dodge/parry/block or are missed 80% or more of the time. That leaves a 20% chance of taking 1 full hit, 4% chance of 2 full hits in a row, .8% chance of a 3, .16% chance 4, etc. Factor that by the chance of not getting a heal in that amount of time, and chance to die from a consecutive string of unblocked hits starts to get ridiculously small.

If you consider death scenarios, which is really what it boils down to because if you don't die then you win the fight, the death-by-unblocked-hit chance quickly drops below the chance of DPS-death-by-stupidity, lag-bubble, healer-DC, etc. scenarios that we treat as acceptable risks any time we take on a boss.

In my raid, we do have mana issues with healers. We are barely out of heroics. I haven't got a raid drop, along with pretty much the entire raid apart from a lock and rogue who are blessed by the gods of RNG and showered with epics. So for me, this balancing act of CTC versus reducing overall damage is quite relavent.

In general, and unblocked hit isn't going to kill me, or trigger a death scenario by itself. So from that perspective achieving 102.4% would be nice, but along the way you have to ask if that last .4% is worth it, or if you could get by with 102%. And from there you ask if the 2% is worth it, and so on until you reach the questions of how many unblocked hits it takes to kill you, and what you consider to be an acceptable risk level.
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