So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:31 pm

Njall wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:I'll admit it's a tedious balance. And I wish my hunter MDed without me yelling at him in every raid. :(


Yes, we have a problem with that too. Hunter can't be bothered, according to a relayed private chat. Fortunately, we have a very good rogue who ToT's regularly. And the 'lock NEVER EVER makes rocks without prompting. Ever. Mages make the yummy pasta. Njall lays down the food. Everyone has a job to do. They should do it.

Mine's not that he can't be bothered, he just literally forgets. And has done for about a year. lol
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Barathorn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:02 pm

It is probably important to consider what 'level' of gear you currently have and more importantly, the threat your DPS is putting out. Myself, I am having few problems with using SoI but then I don't have DPS hitting the levels that Nikachelle has. When I do I will consider my options from that point.

Remember it is down to you as an individual tank to know what you need to do to maintain threat while easing as much of a load as you can on your healers. There isn't a definitive answer to the question of what you should always use, you as an individual need to take a decision and run with it.

While I appreciate the issue of enrage timers and mana pools within the confines of current content that is being worked on, we should remember that dead dps produce precisely 0 damage.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:03 pm

In any of the content referenced by the OP, SoT isn't helping enough to justify it over SoI. If a mage somehow spikes 25k (wtf. considering the rating conversions, most peoples' dps went down or stayed the same from 80 epics to 346 pieces. unless that's AE dps on 3-4 targets... in which case SoT doesn't help either and HotR+GC procs are the vast majority of your threat. either way this isn't a raid boss threat thread. :) ) early enough to pull off you, it's probably before SoT is even stacked to 5.

In anything up to and including heroics, SoI is the way to go. Not only are the mana procs on swings relatively large compared to normal regen (900+ mana on a swing proc, same size as a JotW tick basically), but SoI also has the added mana regen of 15% base mana on judge, to help holy paladins too. So, when you judge with SoI up, you also get 3500 mana back immediately.

Personally when I open on a boss, if positioning isn't absolutely volatile from the start I DP for 3 holy power, open up with 2-3 exorcisms (each is 25% of my bar), then shield, then judge, then SotR when he gets to me or i get to him, and i'm back over 50% before I know it, and I'm at 100% mana by the time I get back to judge again. This usually puts me around 150k-180k threat after the SotR if I get a SD crit proc. If I wanted to (i don't) i could drop consecration with impunity at any point in a fight with all the mana regen I have with SoI up. (This is just an example of what I can do with all this mana.)

The only time I start dipping on mana is when I'm in healer mode and just alternating a HoPo generator and WoG, without even taking a GCD to judge. Even that can go about a minute before I bottom out, and I usually can fit a judgement in there somewhere. -- Or, when I'm in cleansebot mode since I can do poisons and diseases and most healers are missing one of those from their cleanse options. Cleanse is expensive as a tank. :)
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Bashe » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:23 am

Carbonite wrote:5 Mans, Heroics and just questing... pull 1-2 mobs and mana is empty...


Cleansing myself gets me OOM very quickly, as does liberal use of consecration. Other than that I never run out of mana; I cannot for the life of me figure out how you would run dry without those.

I do have the glyph for cheaper crusader strike, but I doubt that's the main issue as I don't run dry on HotR either.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Doxa » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:15 am

To the OP: I you really using the normal rotation? It sounds like (from previous comments in the thread) you're not. I suspect you're neglecting judgement and using consecration or something like that.

Regarding the threat discussion.. Both SoT and SoI are 'the right choice.'

SoI is for tanking heroics with a PUG via the LFD tool. More survivability to help the unknown healer and my own mana pool.

SoT is for tanking heroics with my guildies (well, really just a few folks in my guild - N mentioned mages. Yep).

The fact is, everyone is different and every group is different. Use the tools available to you to generate the threat you need.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Doxa » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:25 am

I also forgot to mention that you can try pulling more than 1-2 mobs at a time. This will allow for more mana regen from BoSanctuary procs in the same time period for better mana regen.

Finally, mana regen at lower gear levels just isn't as good as with better gear from the nature of BoSanctuary as well.
Tanking Trash on Doxa with Consecration(Rank3) Since 2007, on Doxah with Thunderclap since 2009 and on Doxeh with Death and Decay since 2010

Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Bladesong » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:29 pm

Personally when I open on a boss, if positioning isn't absolutely volatile from the start I DP for 3 holy power, open up with 2-3 exorcisms (each is 25% of my bar), then shield, then judge, then SotR when he gets to me


:shock: I have no idea how to squeeze in multiple exorcisms, AS and Judge before the boss gets to me. I want your secret.

@OP: For questing and heroics, you could stack Mastery to help get back mana through your Sanctuary talent (get 3% of your max mana after a block or dodge). There's a reforging guide on this site to help with what stats should be reforged and mastery trinkets are fairly easy to come by, even if the proc or on-use isn't ideal for tanking.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Brute » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:37 am

If I judge on CD I don't have mana issues, even using mana-hog abilities.

That's one thing I don't like about the "refresh AS" talent because there are very few places I can put it in my rotation. 2/3 of the spaces between HotR/CS are already spoken for by ShotR/Inquisition/WoG and Judgement. Maybe I should be modifying my rotation to let those procs in more?

Also, why are you questing as prot? My DPS as ret is significantly higher and it's more fun to play. But to each his own.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Tuttle » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Nikachelle wrote:You tanks tanking heroics with Seal of Insight up 100% of the time... I'd really like to know just how much dps your dpsers are doing. Because frankly, Seal of Insight, from what I've noticed, can't handle 17k dps mages firing right off the pull without any tricks or MD.


I PUG most of the time for heroics and rarely see more than 10-12k dps, and have no problem with threat with SoI up 100% of the time. For the first time, today, I ran SFK (in 15 minutes!) with a DK that was pulling 18-20k dps on some fights and had some issues on pack pulls, but it was pretty minor: when the DK grabbed something I have two taunts I can use to get it back, and when I did I'd just single target it for a few seconds and maybe hit it with a ShoR to guarantee threat if I was close to 3 HoPo.

18kdps seems like a lot to me, maybe it won't be in the future, and maybe in the future I'll think about using WoG less and using SoT, but for now there's no reason not to use them.

Mind you, I'm also at 22 expertise w/o SoT, which undoubtedly helps, but I think being able to stay aware and taunt when necessary will cover any potential loss of threat at my level.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:47 pm

Tuttle wrote:I ran SFK (in 15 minutes!)

I call absolute bullshit on that. Post a log. And it better be heroic.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Invisusira » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:51 pm

Tuttle wrote:SoI up 100% of the time

Tuttle wrote:SFK (in 15 minutes!)

Tuttle wrote:DK that was pulling 18-20k dps
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Vort » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:30 pm

15 seems a bit over the top for SFK. I've done a 23 minute Lost City but that was after a raid and we still had flasks and food buffs so we went in for daily heroic and stomped it chain pulling, even I was pulling 15k dps on trash!
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Tuttle » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:56 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Tuttle wrote:I ran SFK (in 15 minutes!)

I call absolute bullshit on that. Post a log. And it better be heroic.


I don't have logs since it was an LFD group and I don't bother to log them. You can walk away skeptical if you want. What I know is that I used SoI at the start of the dungeon, which went much, much, much better than I'd expected I still had 16m left on SoI which I'd never refreshed.

I went through recount because I couldn't believe it either, and I was seeing everyone but the healer at at least 10k dps (excluding me; I pulled about 7k overall). I only stopped to mark and we didn't bother with CC since we basically didn't have any and my healer was amazing. The only times we slowed down were waiting for that damned worgen to show up and open the doors.

BUT! Regardless of the time it took, the DK was pulling significant DPS (in my eyes, at least) and I rarely had aggro problems. When I did, I taunted. It's just not a huge issue, I'd guess, for most people, to run with SoI all the time and compensate for loss of aggro with taunts -- hell, you have to do that anyway.

My feeling is that with two 8s, no-CGD taunts you have plenty to deal with the occasional loose MOB as long as you're not being significantly outgeared by your DPS. Perhaps an added factor is that I chain-pulled like crazy since my heals were so good, so I almost always had HoPo and vengance to grab aggro.

Anyway, I almost always run w/ SoI in LFD (and, even, in guild groups) because DPS isn't high enough to worry my threat if I make a decent start (and even if I don't, I can taunt and work on threat a bit) and healers have enough problems with mana that it makes a big difference.

I will add that I don't often start WoGing at the beginning (although I have), but once I'm a couple ShoRs in, I never have a problem. With big trash packs I will do an Inquisition as long as my health is good, but when it's not I never hesitate to hit a CD and start using WoG. It's shocking how little threat matters to me, but I won't be raiding until Sunday. When I do I may adjust my opinions, but my guess is that when I hit BWD it's not going to be my threat or survivability that kills the raid.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Tuttle » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:58 pm

Vort wrote:15 seems a bit over the top for SFK. I've done a 23 minute Lost City but that was after a raid and we still had flasks and food buffs so we went in for daily heroic and stomped it chain pulling, even I was pulling 15k dps on trash!


I've had fast Tol'Vir runs, but this SFK run was ridiculous. It almost felt like WotLK.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Earantur » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:00 am

Brute wrote:Also, why are you questing as prot? My DPS as ret is significantly higher and it's more fun to play. But to each his own.

Speaking only for myself, I quest as prot because I'm holy/prot dual specced. I'd guess that's the most likely reason for it.
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