So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

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So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:24 am

With the new changes that happened when Cata was being released it seemed as though I had unlimited mana.... now I seem to kill 1-2 mobs and my entire mana pool is gone!

I am using this as my Rotation

Pull mob with Avenger's Shield, Hotr, Holy Wrath, Hotr, Judgement, Hotr, Sotr and Repeat.

I always have Seal Of Truth Up, Righteous Fury, and Blessing Of Might.

Am I doing something wrong here? I am constantly running out of Mana! Divine Plea seems to barely do anything as well....

Thanks In Advance
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:30 am

Hmmm, I have only noticed a couple of fights in normals when I was close to OOM and the heroics I have been in I have always had at least 33%-50% mana at the end of each pull as a minimum.

Holy Wrath might be the mana hog here, I also use Seal of Insight for the majority of Tanking encounters currently that I have experianced.

I suspect its Holy Wrath sucking you dry.

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:36 am

Too many Avenger's Shield proccs can really cut into the supply too. Keep that Judgment up at all times. Are you ever consecrating? And yes, HW is a mana hog. I use it frequently too but I noticed I had more mana to spare when I removed a point from Grand Crusader to put into GBtL.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:45 am

Seal Of Insight? Hmmm Are alot of people using this over Seal of Truth?

I consencrate only when there are large pulls and I lose aggro on a few of them...

Im using the 0/34/7 build currently....

So I should stop using Wrath as much?
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:48 am

I don't think threat is a huge issue from the 5 mans I have experianced. Raiding may be different but I am using SoI and am having little if any issues with threat currently vs DPS in pre raiding gearing [rough ilevel 330-335] doing reasonable DPS.

What content are you finding the mana an issue in? 5 mans, Heroics or Raids?
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:54 am

5 Mans, Heroics and just questing... pull 1-2 mobs and mana is empty...
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Incite. » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:11 am

I had this problem when I first got into Cata heroics and even normals. It's gotten a lot better with gear it seems because I don't see it anymore. I did stop using Consecration except for the occasional oh crap moments. I use Holy Wrath every time it's up as well as Avengers Shield.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Barathorn » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:13 am

Carbonite wrote:5 Mans, Heroics and just questing... pull 1-2 mobs and mana is empty...


I only use HW as a positioning tool for Mobs to stun them where I want them and to grab some initial threat on everything, much as Warriors use Shockwave. I don't think you need to use it when questing unless you overpull and it saves you from dying.

Reduce your HW usage and problem solved I think.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby sculder » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:34 am

Also hammer does cost more mana than CS (12% vs 10%, but it's still more!). The biggest thing you can do is not consecrate and not HW, but if that's still not working then you probably have to prioritize judgement a lot more in your rotation.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:35 am

I will give it a shot guys! Less HW! I will also try the insight seal... I will post my findings...

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:20 am

HotR is a mana hog. Don't use it unless you really need to.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:26 am

Really? Dont use HoTR? I use this on every pull as it generates my Holy Power.... Should I use CS instead? My understanding was that HoTR was better for AOE which is 3 and above mobs in a pull....

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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:41 am

I'm simply suggesting that you don't use it JUST BECAUSE you have 3 or more mobs up.

An extra 2% might not feel like much, but that's 2% every 3 seconds. 21 seconds into a fight you'd have used 7 * 2% more mana which is a LOT.

Here's an example, on a pull I might use HotR twice in an AoE situation to ensure I have threat on everything. But after that I spend more time tab targeting and using CS even though I'm tanking a lot of mobs.

Seal of Insight does work wonders btw. There's nothing wrong with using it. And considering Holy Wrath's threat isn't all that fantastic, it's a decent ability to drop from your rotatoin.

Basically, this goes back to the same advice in WotlK, which is just because you have a bunch of mobs still alive doesn't mean you have to blow your wad 100% of the time. You can stop using abilities and regen some mana when threat is good.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:34 am

Maybe it's a typo, but in the OP, you don't mention starting with judgement. I would recommend that as your opening move (preceded by exorcism if you like). My understanding is that judgement is how we get our mana back these days: Judgement of the Wise is a passive talent that gives us 30% of mana back over 10 seconds. From your opening rotation, you may be 10 seconds into combat before you have judgement up and are thus about a 1/3 lower on mana than you should be. When I am losing mana, it is often in AOE type situations where I have let judgement fall off in favour of spamming AOE moves. I also like to delay my opening AS a bit (ie after judgement) in the hope that the mobs will bunch up as they approach, so I will get the full bounce.

Normally, I don't have mana problems but I do recall encountering them a fair bit in Cata five man trash fights when I still used Seal of Truth exclusively. I even remember drinking once or twice. Nowadays, I just switch to seal of insight and get topped up very quickly in that situation. I can even use consecration without worry, despite dropping the Hallowed Ground talents - which is a surprise to me. In most fights, I tend to start with Seal of Truth and switch to Insight once threat is established but my health or mana bars are struggling. If a 5-man run is going well - dps not grabbing aggro - I may just use Seal of Insight until the end. My impression is that healers need the help and every little bit of health and mana is appreciated. I am starting to re-evaluate using the Glyph of Seal of Truth, as I just don't seem to use the Seal often enough to justify it.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Carbonite » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:36 am

Great Advice! Ill give it a whirl
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby BlackNet » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:27 am

Few things worth noting here with my setup.

Use insight 100% of the time.
Have judgment early in the cycle.
Cleanse during combat to via decurses.
Help with healing during combat as well via the 5-6 things we have, typically rank around 15-25% of the healing done.
I have only ran low on mana a handful of times so far.
Many pug groups tell me I must tank with truth as it generates more threat, my motto and what I am teaching other tanks is if you must resort to a seal to keep threat them you seriously need to look at your gear and rotations! hammer/shield is your main threat generation ability now. With that combo you can do uber some serious business and never lay down a single consecration circle regardless of the mob size.

With the cata changes to the mana setup we are a blessing if used properly. Toss in a ret paly and have them use RSA (raeli's spell announcer) to broadcast when the party beneficial spells are in place, trust me your healers will LOVE you for it as they seem to be getting higher crits when your abilities are in place than when they are not.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:35 am

You tanks tanking heroics with Seal of Insight up 100% of the time... I'd really like to know just how much dps your dpsers are doing. Because frankly, Seal of Insight, from what I've noticed, can't handle 17k dps mages firing right off the pull without any tricks or MD.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:40 am

Nikachelle wrote:You tanks tanking heroics with Seal of Insight up 100% of the time... I'd really like to know just how much dps your dpsers are doing. Because frankly, Seal of Insight, from what I've noticed, can't handle 17k dps mages firing right off the pull without any tricks or MD.


Yeah, most heroics you're probably looking at 10K or so DPS. Most folks just aren't as high end as the ones you run with. :) That said, I usually swap out the SoT for SoI once I've established a comfortable threat lead.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:43 am

Njall wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:You tanks tanking heroics with Seal of Insight up 100% of the time... I'd really like to know just how much dps your dpsers are doing. Because frankly, Seal of Insight, from what I've noticed, can't handle 17k dps mages firing right off the pull without any tricks or MD.


Yeah, most heroics you're probably looking at 10K or so DPS. Most folks just aren't as high end as the ones you run with. :) That said, I usually swap out the SoT for SoI once I've established a comfortable threat lead.

They're 17-19k dps on the pull with all their nasty cds up, but they'll drop to 12-14k overall, with some spiking around 15k.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:45 am

Nikachelle wrote:
They're 17-19k dps on the pull with all their nasty cds up, but they'll drop to 12-14k overall, with some spiking around 15k.


Well, after the front-end loading is over, you can probably switch over to SoI if you are so inclined. Or you can tell your DPS to stop being dickish.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby BlackNet » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:46 am

A friend of mine has a dk which pulls a good 25k at times, I have seen him pull 35k on trash. I have ran with many high dps people and so far not had a problem with it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/arygos/blacknet/simple

I have no doubt that if a dps out geared my threat generation or seriously out geared me then we would have some serious problems to deal with.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:47 am

I do, frequently.

However, there's still people saying you can tank perfectly fine with Insight 100% of the time as if they never lose aggro. Frankly, I don't believe them.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:50 am

BlackNet wrote:A friend of mine has a dk which pulls a good 25k at times, I have seen him pull 35k on trash. I have ran with many high dps people and so far not had a problem with it.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/arygos/blacknet/simple

I have no doubt that if a dps out geared my threat generation or seriously out geared me then we would have some serious problems to deal with.

Says the guy wearing a threat trinket and a threat neck and a threat weapon and a threat enchant and a threat belt and threat rings and has threat gems (expertise/hit) AND reforged for a buttload of hit.

Yeah okay dude.
Last edited by Nikachelle on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby Njall » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:51 am

That's threatening.
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Re: So Thirsty! Wheres My Mana Going!?

Postby BlackNet » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:27 am

Yup, I have been playing around with the hit cap recently, currently it's at 7.5 and am trying to reach 8 with common items. I also just left a very fail guild where the dps would commonly go down durring fights and do some insane stupid stuff, i.e. took 23.5 minutes to fight the Altairus the wind boss in heroic vortex, was just the healer and me going at it. Sad sad day so after that I said ok pump up the dps and mastery. From various readings here I have came to the conclusion to stock up on as much armor and mastery as possible then shoot for hit to 8%, expertise to 25, strength. Overall it's not a bad threat set I have there.

From what we have found with the dps DK he can pull off every single tank he as seen except me and just about every tank I see and hear about is still using the stamina is king mentality.

Besides it's quite fun and enjoyable blitzing through stuff and the dps not have to hold back.
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