Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

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Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Brauun » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:31 am

I have read that Parry and Dodge pretty much are the same thing now, in a sense that Parry does not increase your attack rate afterwards (am I wrong?). I also know both Dodge and Parry are subject to diminishing returns. Right now, I'm sitting at roughly 14% Dodge and 11.5% Parry. Would reforging some Dodge into Parry make me see an increase in total avoidance, since the amount of Dodge I'd reforge into Parry should be subject to less diminishing returns since both % values would now be less higher?
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby lythac » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:43 am

Yes.

However Mastery is better than both Dodge and Parry atm. Looking at your armory you can reforge some dodge to mastery on your Bracers, Legs and Feet (there is twice as much dodge rating compared to hit on feet and legs so probably worth that to get more mastery). Places for parry to mastery as well.

So before doing any dodge to parry or parry to dodge conversions on pieces already with mastery I would do all your gear to mastery first.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Brauun » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:54 am

Alright and thank you for the tips by the way! Gloves have Dodge and Mastery already, so can't reforge into Mastery, but I get your point, I'll reforge all pieces with no Mastery on it. I had only reforged Expertise into Mastery up to now, since I am only running 5 man heroics at the moment and I am having absolutely no issue with threat (the threat leads I build are actually kinda scary, but it's good, I get to use WoG a lot more than SotR, healers must be happy).
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:12 am

My rule of thumb on reforging is:
  • If the item doesn't have mastery, reforge one stat into mastery (threat stats first if the item has one, and the higher of the two avoidance stats if it doesn't).
  • If the item does have mastery, reforge dodge or parry as appropriate to try and keep parry 1% ahead of dodge, which is almost exactly the equivalence point. If you're lazy, you can just reforge them to make dodge and parry roughly equal, that's almost as good.

For threat gear, of course, you'd reforge differently.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby hrbngr » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:01 pm

theckhd,

thanks for this guide on reforging! I will be using this as i gear up. A quick question though, I am using a macro I found somewhere to calculate the 102.4% total avoidance calculation, but i'm not sure if it is correct--I will try to link it when i get home from work...

Is a macro like that listed somewhere on this site?

Currently, we need to get to 92.4% total avoidance so that we will be at 102.4% with holy shield, correct? Is 92.4% (if correct) even reachable on the current ilvl 346 justice points/rep gear i359 exalteds--basically non-raid pieces?
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:33 pm

Holy Shield gives you 10% block amount not block chance. In other words, when you block an attack, you prevent 40% of the damage if Holy Shield is up, and only 30% if it's not. As a result, Holy Shield no longer has any effect on the block cap, which is still 102.4%.

The macro is posted in several places on the forums, but here it is again:
Code: Select all
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5))
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby inthedrops » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:34 am

theckhd wrote:My rule of thumb on reforging is:
  • If the item doesn't have mastery, reforge one stat into mastery (threat stats first if the item has one, and the higher of the two avoidance stats if it doesn't).
  • If the item does have mastery, reforge dodge or parry as appropriate to try and keep parry 1% ahead of dodge, which is almost exactly the equivalence point. If you're lazy, you can just reforge them to make dodge and parry roughly equal, that's almost as good.

For threat gear, of course, you'd reforge differently.


Pretty similar to me I think. I gem for socket bonuses because stamina doesn't matter right now. Heroic raids might change that. As long as I have > 140k health, I use full mastery gems for yellow slots, full stam gems for blue slots, and hybrid gems with mastery or parry for everything else.

I don't reforge dodge parry to keep them balanced as they're close enough. But I do reforge threat stats into mastery.

I am either 150k health and 51.73% block or 54.89% block and 141k health depending on what I'm doing. Seems to be working fine. My dodge and parry are both below 12%.

I don't have the "epeen" health other tanks still seem to be doing but to me the extra block I'm getting is WAYYYYYY worth the loss of epeen stats. Even gemmed this way I can hit 157k health if I want to with two stam trinkets but I've yet to see the point.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby hrbngr » Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:10 pm

theckhd,

thanks for the feedback--so there are no shortcuts to 102.4% I guess. For the gear lists that I have reviewed, the only slot w/no i346+ dodge/parry/mastery double avoidance itemization is Legs--so ill go w/the JP legs there. Luckily I will have the alchy trink and will run H Throne relentlessly for http://cata.wowhead.com/item=56280 with http://cata.wowhead.com/item=56449 and http://cata.wowhead.com/item=56406 as alternatives. This appears to be my best chance to reach the magic number using mastery and parry/mastery gems along w/blue stams for a pre-raiding set.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Digren » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:11 pm

I don't currently recommend that people try to reforge to even out dodge and parry, solely because most people aren't bothering (yet) to buy top-of-the-line gems and enchants. I think most folks can see a larger benefit by saving their money for that.

Obviously every bit helps, but big bits help more than little bits, and it's better to do the big bits first.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Xkonvikt » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:31 pm

Hello,

New poster here long time reader.

So, let me get this straight Exp/Hit is not a priority anymore? Why is this? From my understanding, hitting exp cap (26) and hitting hit cap (8%), is a must. Without being able to hit the mobs you are "tanking" you can not generate threat.

I read a post here somewhere that was stating you should reforge into avoidance stats. So, taking it as I see it, I reforged some hit back into an avoidance stat, whichever was the lowest rating at the time.

After doing this I ran some dungeons to see how everything was going mind you I was at 78.5% avoidance totaled. Although I saw a decent damage intake decrease, I also saw a threat decrease. Someone actually pulled threat off of me! O_O I was at 4% hit and still above exp cap at 33. I am not sure if this was just a fluke or not but, it did happen in 2 different instances one with a boomkin and one with a mage. I didn't look at their gear, also note that it was on a mob I wasn't targeting. Threat was never pulled off of a mob I was targeting.

I wouldn't mind some gear checking and stat distribution if anyone wants to check my gear on armoury. Thanks in advance!
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Brauun » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:57 pm

The way I see it is it depends on where damage dealers' and healers' gear stand. As of right now, and that is because the game is still very new, I frequently run 5 man heroics with undergeared healers who might be struggling on healing, and undergeared damage dealers who are simply not challenging me on threat. This means I do not need the extra threat and the healers need my additional avoidance/mitigation (and sometimes WoG spam).

I have also runned with guild groups with healers and damage dealers who are on par with me in terms of skills and iLevel. I notice two things different. One is I do not feel like I need the extra avoidance/mitigation, because I do not feel the healer is struggling to keep me alive. They are able to fill me health bar with ease, and their mana bar is not really going down. The second thing I noticed is that on the initial pull, I may struggle a bit on threat if I am unlucky with Sacred Duty procs and misses/dodge/parries (especially on Avenger Shield). I may also struggle if, for some reason, the situation goes fubar and I need to switch off my main target and start taunting and hacking at targets who were targetting someone else because I do not have the big threat lead I usually build up against lower iLvl damage dealers. On single target fights, my ramp up time will seem higher because those damage dealers are on my tail for the first few seconds. About 1 min. into the fight though, I always feel like I could switch to Seal of Insight and I'd still hold threat no matter what.

So to resume this in a few words, the less geared your group is, the more avoidance and the less threat you need. As your group gets better gear, the more threat you'll need and the less avoidance will be required (even though avoidance is always good because, you know, a tank's job kinda is to take the lest possible damage). Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:38 am

Xkonvikt wrote:Hello,

New poster here long time reader.

So, let me get this straight Exp/Hit is not a priority anymore? Why is this? From my understanding, hitting exp cap (26) and hitting hit cap (8%), is a must. Without being able to hit the mobs you are "tanking" you can not generate threat.


I have around 2% hit and about 12 expertise and I generate threat and hold aggro just fine.

Xkonvikt wrote:I read a post here somewhere that was stating you should reforge into avoidance stats. So, taking it as I see it, I reforged some hit back into an avoidance stat, whichever was the lowest rating at the time.

After doing this I ran some dungeons to see how everything was going mind you I was at 78.5% avoidance totaled. Although I saw a decent damage intake decrease, I also saw a threat decrease. Someone actually pulled threat off of me! O_O I was at 4% hit and still above exp cap at 33. I am not sure if this was just a fluke or not but, it did happen in 2 different instances one with a boomkin and one with a mage. I didn't look at their gear, also note that it was on a mob I wasn't targeting. Threat was never pulled off of a mob I was targeting.


DPS aren't supposed to be able to go all out on mobs you don't target. That's their fault, not yours. Meanwhile you are hurting your survivability by gearing for threat.

Make life easier on your healers and harder on your DPS.

Note that I may tab target around a bit early on pulls, but I'm marking a skull now and ensuring I stay well above DPS on it. Anyone targeting any other mobs (besides me) is in the wrong.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby Xkonvikt » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:04 am

Digren wrote:I have around 2% hit and about 12 expertise and I generate threat and hold aggro just fine.


I agree but, we are the first ones they get pissed at. I have been booted from groups just simply saying "WTB silence Mr. Mage" Or "If you are not attacking my target and you pull threat I will NOT pull it off you, you can tank it."

Digren wrote:DPS aren't supposed to be able to go all out on mobs you don't target. That's their fault, not yours. Meanwhile you are hurting your survivability by gearing for threat.

Make life easier on your healers and harder on your DPS.

Note that I may tab target around a bit early on pulls, but I'm marking a skull now and ensuring I stay well above DPS on it. Anyone targeting any other mobs (besides me) is in the wrong.


I have recently reforged my gear. I am level 84 with 71.90% avoidance 2% hit/30 exp. I only have that much expertise because it is just how my gear itemization is allocated.
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby nalenb » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:24 pm

I'm a bit confused about the avoidance percentage. Here's my armory:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... lon/simple

I'm mainly in quest rewards. I've reforged to add mastery (though I have to go back through and reforge again cause I took greater of parry/dodge for mastery instead of hit/expertise). However, when I run the macro I'm in the mid 60's. I swear that my wrath gear at 80 was high 70's. Also when I'm running cata normals I seem to be taking a lot of damage on trash mobs. I don't know if this is normal or if it's due to my low avoidance. Healers are saying I'm taking a lot and I can see them close to OOM on trash packs. Things seem normal otherwise, i.e. I'm not losing threat, we aren't wiping, etc.

Is there something I'm missing regarding increasing avoidance? (I'm not ready to buy top of the line gems or enchants yet)

Thanks
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Re: Evening Dodge and Parry % with reforging

Postby inthedrops » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:56 pm

I took a quick peek at your armory. You're just experiencing what we all did when we first did 85 dungeons. They hurt. You'll be feeling better about things in a week after some upgrades.
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