Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3

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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Treck » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:33 am

Dont forget that any other cloak would give about 200+ str, thats about as much avoidance as the hit conversion would give.
But sure, its a lot of mastery with 2 sockets.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:44 am

Pyrea wrote:What is your opinion of http://www.wowhead.com/item=70992 and its heroic counterpart http://www.wowhead.com/item=71415.

I know the agility is useless (except for a bit of crit chance), but stick two 40 mastery gems in there and you have a normal mode cloak with 175 mastery rating and a heroic mode cloak with 193 mastery rating (reforge the hit to avoidance).


To start with I don't think it's failsafe. Drops from some Ryl guy?

The normal mode cloak is possibly a sidegrade to the 365 quest cloak for survival. The 40 inherent difference in mastery give the agility cloak a disadvantage of one gemslot. The remaining 40 mastery should be matched against 134 dodge rating and 54 parry rating, minus 56 avoidance from reforging the hit-rating (can't reforge into mastery).

It's a marginal gain in CTC, 41 mastery versus 130 avodance. MDR should be about similar due to higher armour in the 378 piece, and the agility cloak wins on EH with the extra stamina. That it's a loss in threat goes without saying, but we shouldn't need threat.

Overall the 378 agi cloak is a minor upgrade to the 365 tanking cloak, and the 391 obviously is a distinct upgrade.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:31 pm

I finally caved in and added the PvP helmets.

Comparing with Digren's list the 371 helmet qualifies as a lack-luster 359 proper tanking helmet, but not an outright bad one. The 384 one joins the club as a slightly worse Firelands normal mode tanking helmet comparision. For the failsafe tank the helmets come as a godsend, even though I'm personally slightly unhappy to see PvP gear rank that high for a tank.

Keeping me happy, however, isn't what this gear guide is about. Those helmets are simply too good not to be mentioned.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby econ21 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:25 am

That's a very comprehensive updating, Yappo, thanks!

There is a mastery/strength on use trinket (Essence of the Eternal Flame) from the Avenger's of Hjyal Revered. Two or three trash runs would remove the need for a second Tol Barad trinket.

Have you looked at the S10 lower tier shield and weapons? The high item level on the weapon might make it good for threat/farming 5 mans. If we were in wotlk, the shield might be good for effective health but no one talks about that anymore. I know you need to earn a certain amount of honor per season to get them, but a failsafe tank might do that sort of thing. (I'll probably grind out a full PvP set eventually.) Personally, I'm more interested in the lower tier PvP items than the conquest ones - I don't do arenas, but am going to be converting excess JPs into HPs.

The report item levels for the top three legs are typos (they are not 346).
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:18 am

econ21 wrote:That's a very comprehensive updating, Yappo, thanks!

There is a mastery/strength on use trinket (Essence of the Eternal Flame) from the Avenger's of Hjyal Revered. Two or three trash runs would remove the need for a second Tol Barad trinket.

Have you looked at the S10 lower tier shield and weapons? The high item level on the weapon might make it good for threat/farming 5 mans. If we were in wotlk, the shield might be good for effective health but no one talks about that anymore. I know you need to earn a certain amount of honor per season to get them, but a failsafe tank might do that sort of thing. (I'll probably grind out a full PvP set eventually.) Personally, I'm more interested in the lower tier PvP items than the conquest ones - I don't do arenas, but am going to be converting excess JPs into HPs.

The report item levels for the top three legs are typos (they are not 346).


Fixed the legs. Thanks for catching that!

And about the trinks, yeah, I think I'll add two of them. The on-strength is kind of a no-brainer as it's a direct upgrade to the TB one. The agility on-use is a bit more iffy, but it does come with higher static mastery.

I'll skip on the Honor shield, because it's still 359 and just can't compete with the crafted one. I'll have a look at the Conquest one though. I'll also take a very close look at the weapons again.

I don't really agree that people don't talk about EH any longer. We just don't use that word :D While stamina doesn't receive much in the way of recognition, I still believe we're supposed to just know, by means of mind-reading, that armour has a place. I haven't seen the current numbers, but anything between 5 - 10 armour per point of mastery sounds reasonable. The wide range depending on how you value the new on-use effect of Holy Shield.

Anyway, somewhere down the line we'll have to decide if we're going to shop proper tanking items for Valor or the best tanking items. I'm aware that shields and weapons require us to amass a big chunk of Conquest, but look at it this way: You pick up the cloak and the helmet. Now you 'only' have to pad out some 4k CP on 'crap' PvP gear before you can start collecting for the weapon. I don't know if the shield can be bought before the 11650 CP (ie if it could be shopped in the 'crap' interval). The overhead is still 'only' four weeks, even if you collect zero CP the 'natural' way.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby econ21 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:29 am

Ah, the honor weapons and shields are 359. I missed that - I'd assumed they were 371 or something. Yes, forget them then.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Digren » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:00 pm

Very easy to follow your guide, which is what I've always liked about it. You do have a typo in the Vicious Gladiator's helm name. (I keep thinking it says Viscous, which is pretty amusing for some reason. =p Blizzard should give us a Sticky Helm of Goo with appropriate graphic.)

While leaving out profession gear is reasonable, I think it could help those who have a profession to see where they can benefit from it. For example, the "problematic" head slot is solved for engineers, provided they know where that helm falls in the comparison. And alchemists and jewelcrafters have better trinket options (though maybe the JC trinkets aren't failsafe? I'm not sure how those drops work).
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:09 am

I've added trinkets and the 378 PvP weapon. PvP shields will have to stay out unless you convince me that the extra stamina and armour is worth it.

Thanks for catching the typo, Digren ;)

I'll look at the profession self-only alternatives.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Archeth » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:27 pm

Digren wrote:While leaving out profession gear is reasonable, I think it could help those who have a profession to see where they can benefit from it. For example, the "problematic" head slot is solved for engineers, provided they know where that helm falls in the comparison. And alchemists and jewelcrafters have better trinket options (though maybe the JC trinkets aren't failsafe? I'm not sure how those drops work).

Following the wowhead comments, I got all my paladin's JC trinket quest items within about an hour. How fast you get them is RNG but I'd still consider them failsafe because you can farm the quest items solo, for days (which won't be necessary).
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Khami » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:49 pm

I see you have listed the PvP Helmet, Back, and a few other items, but not the waist item.

What do you think of that one?
http://www.wowhead.com/item=70326
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:26 pm

Khami wrote:I see you have listed the PvP Helmet, Back, and a few other items, but not the waist item.

What do you think of that one?
http://www.wowhead.com/item=70326


Added. Sorry for the delay. It's a high stamina CTC option.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:12 pm

And I'm now obsoleting this guide until I have rewritten it for 4.3. Sure, it's valid for a few days more, but as it includes advice involving grinding dailies and whatnot, this guide needs an update valid for the upcoming patch.

I'll label the guide obsolete, then as WiP and, when I believe I'm finished with the update, finally I'll simply remove any temporary labels.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby econ21 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:16 pm

yappo wrote:And I'm now obsoleting this guide until I have rewritten it for 4.3.


Looking at Vexryn's list, it seems now is a good time to be a failsafe tank. The list of VP gear in 4.3 is particularly impressive. I thought removing tier gear would mean a return to putting a distance between raiders and non-raiders, but the reverse if anything seems to be the case.

And while not strictly failsafe, the new 5 mans seem to fill the remaining slots with Firelands standard gear and I suspect the drops there will be de facto failsafe, at least for anyone capping VP points via 5 mans.

On the downside, it's another lengthy VP grind. I'll have to replace every gear slot, I reckon and with SWTOR around the corner, am not sure I will have the staying power. But at least, I will have stuff to do if I want to.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:36 pm

econ21 wrote:Looking at Vexryn's list, it seems now is a good time to be a failsafe tank. The list of VP gear in 4.3 is particularly impressive. I thought removing tier gear would mean a return to putting a distance between raiders and non-raiders, but the reverse if anything seems to be the case.


The main problem I see with the failsafe gear (as listed from PTR-sources), is that it seems to be mostly avoidance/avoidance and avoidance/threat. It could mean that the failsafe tank will either have to rely on 378 five-man drops to reach 102.4 or bite the bullet and go for the 39x VP gear for superior stamina, but accept that the occasional attack will land in the face.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:53 am

With the ilvls and reforging, you don't think it would be possible to get full CTC from failsafe choices even if they're A/A? I could see an issue maybe if you have a lot of A/T, and with the VP cap raised slightly (and much easier to obtain) I would suspect using VP items as "failsafe" wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby econ21 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:54 am

yappo wrote:The main problem I see with the failsafe gear (as listed from PTR-sources), is that it seems to be mostly avoidance/avoidance and avoidance/threat.


That's a good point. I suspect I am close to a maxed out failsafe tank (although I am now actually wearing a couple of Firelands drops) and I am just about block capped (need 2 mastery trinkets for it). I'm almost indifferent now between avoidance/mastery gear and other stuff, so I will pretty much just look at ilevel henceforth. However I still prefer mastery gear for the greater flexibility it gives when re-adjusting to some new piece of loot.

I suspect the implication of what you say is that failsafe tanks, unlike dedicated raiders, will still need to worry about being block capped in 4.3. Which I actually find fun - stacking stamina is such a boring gearing strategy; trying to do it while jiggling block cap (and threat caps maybe in future with active mitigation) is more interesting.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:32 am

Gear is listed. I'll see if there are any other sources for failsafe gear (apart from the PvP-items available come next season).
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby econ21 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:42 am

yappo wrote:I'll see if there are any other sources for failsafe gear.


Thanks, Yappo. There are new 397 legs and bracers from Blacksmithing.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby yappo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:08 am

Some of the theory sections updated. I'll add crafts and S11 PvP gear later. On my ToDo is also an updated evaluation of what gear the differently ranked tanks have.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.2

Postby Barathorn » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:23 am

Really good work on this thread, well done Yappo.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3 (WIP)

Postby yappo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:46 am

Thanks Bara (and welcome back, I guess).

I've added the S11 CP gear. I've also relinked and fixed the S11 conversion from 384 to 390 Honor gear. Added some advice to my links, and I finally caved in and added the disgusting CP shoulders as an option. 57 ilevels worth of scrap metal without a single tanking stat wins in the end, even if I dislike listing an item which screams "BAD TANK".
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3 (WIP)

Postby Barathorn » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:39 am

yappo wrote:Thanks Bara (and welcome back, I guess).

I've added the S11 CP gear. I've also relinked and fixed the S11 conversion from 384 to 390 Honor gear. Added some advice to my links, and I finally caved in and added the disgusting CP shoulders as an option. 57 ilevels worth of scrap metal without a single tanking stat wins in the end, even if I dislike listing an item which screams "BAD TANK".


I am just keeping the seat warm for Digren and making sure that people remain civil to each other in this forum :wink: .

Go about your business. Nothing to see here.

I do like your guide though, very nicely done.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3

Postby yappo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Releasing this guide as its first finalized 4.3 version. Comment any mistakes I am guilty of.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3

Postby lythac » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:07 am

I do not think the int valour cloak should be listed as threat, the loss of str puts it roughly the same DPS as the Honor purchasable cloak in their un-reforged state 348DPS (honour) vs 360DPS (PvP). If you are wearing the int valour cloak likely to be struggling for full CTC so the the hit would be reforged to avoidance anyway putting it on par with a cloak with zero hit/expertise and only 158 str.
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Re: Failsafe gearing guide, 4.3

Postby yappo » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:21 am

lythac wrote:I do not think the int valour cloak should be listed as threat, the loss of str puts it roughly the same DPS as the Honor purchasable cloak in their un-reforged state 348DPS (honour) vs 360DPS (PvP). If you are wearing the int valour cloak likely to be struggling for full CTC so the the hit would be reforged to avoidance anyway putting it on par with a cloak with zero hit/expertise and only 158 str.


Good point. I'll redefine it as CTC only.
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