Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby lythac » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:16 pm

aureon wrote:Why aren't the WotLK armor trinket present?


Patch 4.0.6 - Lich King trinkets with bonus armor values have been adjusted using the new Cataclysm formula, reducing their armor values substantially.

Would be my guess.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby inthedrops » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:59 pm

Treck posted some missing waist and ring pieces from CoW and I think it's very important to have them in the gear list considering they are close to if not sometimes best in slot.

Here are a couple screenshots of some I've managed to grab. Treck included all the details you need to know though in his excellent post a page or two back:

Image

(Note that the ring is ilvl 372)
Image

Hah, I just realized you all get to know what I name my gearsets :)
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby majorwoo » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:03 pm

inthedrops wrote:
Hah, I just realized you all get to know what I name my gearsets :)


I want to know the difference between "mastery" and "super mastery". I have a suspicion it is something I looked at doing myself, but decided against.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:11 pm

majorwoo wrote:
inthedrops wrote:
Hah, I just realized you all get to know what I name my gearsets :)


I want to know the difference between "mastery" and "super mastery". I have a suspicion it is something I looked at doing myself, but decided against.


It's more for fun than actual use in raids. It's the gear I have with the most mastery on it. Puts me a bit above 62% block and like 145k health. I don't think I've actually worn it in a raid though so it's more of a "how high can I go" thing.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby yappo » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:10 pm

inthedrops wrote:It's more for fun than actual use in raids. It's the gear I have with the most mastery on it. Puts me a bit above 62% block and like 145k health. I don't think I've actually worn it in a raid though so it's more of a "how high can I go" thing.


You're sick and perverted :D

Extrapolating from my set it should see you at 93% CTC.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:37 pm

Hah, just checked:
145k health
10.29 dodge
13.34 parry
62.50% block
91.93 before raid buffs.

I still have a crappy helm with only 56 reforged mastery on it. But I equip Earthshape Pauldrons, The Lustrous Eye, and Red Rock Band as items I don't normally wear (I have better all around pieces). Obviously two mastery trinkets. I could probably get another 0.5% or more with some regemming but like I said, I've never tanked in this. Maybe I should try :)

I keep meaning to see what the heck CTC means but assume it just means hot close to unhittable one is.

Edit: Oh, Combat Table Coverage.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Treck » Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:28 pm

I think [Cloak of Biting Chill] should be added to the list, as it appears to be the best back ingame for us atm. For some reason theres no 372 "tanking" cloak available.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby yappo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:07 am

Treck wrote:I think [Cloak of Biting Chill] should be added to the list, as it appears to be the best back ingame for us atm. For some reason theres no 372 "tanking" cloak available.


Hmm, we're going to see shammies, rogues and druids paying for hitmen to come after maintankadin :D

And yes, I'm well aware that the agi/mastery slots tend to be fantastic for us. Just hard to convince the agi-dps that we're rolling on a tanking-upgrade. Looks a bit similar to holydins rolling on cloth the last X-pac.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Treck » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:13 am

yappo wrote: Just hard to convince the agi-dps that we're rolling on a tanking-upgrade. Looks a bit similar to holydins rolling on cloth the last X-pac.

Atleast everywhere i went, it was generally acceptable for paladins (of both holy and ret) to sport mail/leather/cloth just cuz the stats were better and the armor didnt make any real difference anyway.
If its BiS, its BiS, be it for a tank or a dps.
Who its the biggest upgrade for, is another story, but its also more of a guild based decision at that point
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby yappo » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:33 am

Treck wrote:Who its the biggest upgrade for, is another story, but its also more of a guild based decision at that point


Ah, but I'm a puggie :D
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Digren » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:53 pm

inthedrops wrote:Treck posted some missing waist and ring pieces from CoW and I think it's very important to have them in the gear list considering they are close to if not sometimes best in slot.

Here are a couple screenshots of some I've managed to grab. Treck included all the details you need to know though in his excellent post a page or two back:

Image

These are pretty good. Details for all three tanking options:
...of the Bedrock
+380 Stamina, +232 Strength, +160 Mastery Rating, +160 Parry Rating
...of the Bouldercrag
+380 Stamina, +232 Strength, +160 Dodge Rating, +160 Parry Rating
...of the Rockslab
+380 Stamina, +232 Strength, +160 Mastery Rating, +160 Dodge Rating

I've flagged Rockstab and Bedrock as best in slot, with Bouldercrag behind. All three are better than the Hardened Elementium Girdle and the Jumbotron Power Belt, at least in my maths.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Treck » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:00 pm

I wouldnt say
...of the Bouldercrag
+380 Stamina, +232 Strength, +160 Dodge Rating, +160 Parry Rating

Is better than Jumbotron Power Belt
But both Bedrock and Rockslab are great alternatives to Jumbotron as comparing normal vs normal and hc vs hc, the throne loot wins over Omnotrons.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Digren » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:46 pm

Treck wrote:I wouldnt say
...of the Bouldercrag
+380 Stamina, +232 Strength, +160 Dodge Rating, +160 Parry Rating

Is better than Jumbotron Power Belt
But both Bedrock and Rockslab are great alternatives to Jumbotron as comparing normal vs normal and hc vs hc, the throne loot wins over Omnotrons.

Both have identical stamina and armor. Once properly enhanced, and assuming that parry is reforged to mastery on the Bouldercrag, the differences are:
Code: Select all
Jumbotron           Bouldercrag
+95 mastery rating
                    +21 dodge rating
                    +111 parry rating

We need to assume existing values for post-DR dodge and parry, which I'll set to 13.5% dodge and 14.5% parry (about the numbers that Theck's raid gear set has).

What I want to do is calculate the amount of mastery rating necessary to equal the damage reduction of the Bouldercrag's avoidance rating. From Theck's maths:
Code: Select all
dD/Do = -dAr*Fa/(Ar+K)*[1-Av-0.4*B] - Fa*[dAv+0.4*dB]           (4)

Fortunately dAr is 0 in this comparison. I will break dAv down into dAvd and dAvp.
Code: Select all
dD/Do = - Fa*[dAvd + dAvp + 0.4*dB]

Because we're trying to find an equivalence, we want the amount of dB such that
Code: Select all
dAvd + dAvp = 0.4 * dB


From Theck
Code: Select all
dA' = (dA/k)*(1-A'/C)^2   (10)

Where dA' is the post-DR avoidance provided by pre-DR dA, A' is character sheet post-DR avoidance (i.e. (char_sheet_dodge_% - 3.9705) or (char_sheet_parry_% - 5)).

dA must be derived from rating, which is "0.01*dRv/Ca, the added avoidance rating divided by the avoidance rating conversion factor (Ca=176.7189) times 0.01 to put it in decimal notation."
Thus
Code: Select all
dAd = 0.01 * 21 / 176.7189 = 0.00119        (A)
dAp = 0.01 * 111 / 176.7189 = 0.00628       (B)
Ad' = 0.135 - 0.039705 = 0.095295           (C)
Ap' = 0.145 - 0.05 = 0.095                  (D)
k = 0.9560
C = 0.65631440
dAvd = 0.000908                             (E)
dAvp = 0.004805                             (F)

Thus
Code: Select all
dAvd + dAvp = 0.005714 = 0.4 * dB
dB = 0.01428                                (G)

dB is easy to convert to dRm, because dB = 0.0225/Cm*dRm where Cm=179.28 @ level 85 per Theck. Thus
Code: Select all
dB * Cm / 0.0225 = dRm
dRm = 113.8


In other words, given my initial assumptions, it would take 114 mastery rating to equal the damage-reduction of 21 dodge rating plus 111 parry rating. This seems to make sense; in Theck's math in his derivation spreadsheet, he assumed smaller percentages of post-DR avoidance, and yielded a result where 122 mastery rating was equal to 132 avoidance rating. Here, I'm assuming a raider with greater DR, and thus slightly less mastery rating is necessary to match the avoidance rating.

So what does that mean? Well, the Jumbotron only provides 95 mastery rating, less than the 114 mastery rating necessary to match the Bouldercrag. Thus, Thunder Wall Belt of the Bouldercrag (non-heroic) is better than the Jumbotron Power Belt (non-heroic) for damage reduction.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Digren » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:55 pm

I edited the above to correct a previous mis-statement.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Treck » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:20 am

Digren wrote:This seems to make sense; in Theck's math in his derivation spreadsheet, he assumed smaller percentages of post-DR avoidance, and yielded a result where 122 mastery rating was equal to 132 avoidance rating.

So what does that mean? Well, the Jumbotron only provides 95 mastery rating, less than the 114 mastery rating necessary to match the Bouldercrag.

Im not doubting your math, im just very suprised at the mastery vs avoidance correlations.
I thought 122mastery would be a lot better than just equal to 132 avoidance rating.
Altho i have noticed something of this effect while using Chardev, since i dont do the math, i let that do it for me (to see the % gain from different gearparts, and i do hope its correct)

Atleast i got 372 of the rockslab on both ring/belt, so im not looking for any upgrades ^^
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:07 am

Treck wrote:Im not doubting your math, im just very suprised at the mastery vs avoidance correlations.
I thought 122mastery would be a lot better than just equal to 132 avoidance rating.

Keep in mind that you may be talking about two different things. Mastery is better point-for-point than avoidance rating for reducing incoming damage after around 10%, but it's not ahead by very much. So when comparing mastery to avoidance, a slightly larger amount of avoidance will generally come out ahead. In this case, it takes 114 mastery to give the same damage reduction as 132 avoidance rating, which means the mastery is about 15% better at reducing damage intake point for point. Since one belt has more than 15% more avoidance rating than the other belt has mastery (132/95=1.389, or +39%), the avoidance belt will do a slightly better job of reducing damage intake.

However, that's just reducing damage intake, which may or may not be a relevant comparison for gearing. The mastery belt is far ahead in combat table coverage (CTC) because mastery is 2.5-3x stronger in that department rather than 15% stronger. Ala Digren's math, the 132 avoidance from the Conclave belt gives 0.5713% CTC, while the 95 mastery on the Jumbotron gives 1.19%.

Most people would argue that the extra CTC on the Jumbotron makes it the stronger choice, and I think I'd agree for the most part, though the difference is quite small. Either is an excellent belt. The Thunder Wall has the added advantage of versatility; as you pull ahead of the block cap, you could un-reforge back to pure avoidance for larger total damage reduction with no loss to CTC.

This is the difficulty of saying one belt "wins," or even that one is hands-down "better" than the other. You need to be very clear about what metric you're using, because not all metrics are created equal. A cat might be a "better" pet than a turtle because it's more entertaining, but that metric is of little use to the person with severe fur allergies.

I can (and have) given you very accurate equations for measuring relative damage reduction, and I could probably give you accurate equations for how mastery "smooths" damage input (TODO: do this), but I can't give you accurate equations for how "smoothing" damage input affects the reaction time and play style of your healers, or which one gives you a better chance of killing the boss.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:10 am

I do think people sometimes forget that avoidance exists :) Tanks with 10% dodge, 12.5% parry, 60% block. I mean, that's good. But I'd much rather have 12.5% dodge, 13.5% parry (3.5% more) and 54% block (6% less). I made up these numbers but it's a trend I notice.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Digren » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:03 am

Treck wrote:
Digren wrote:This seems to make sense; in Theck's math in his derivation spreadsheet, he assumed smaller percentages of post-DR avoidance, and yielded a result where 122 mastery rating was equal to 132 avoidance rating.

So what does that mean? Well, the Jumbotron only provides 95 mastery rating, less than the 114 mastery rating necessary to match the Bouldercrag.

Im not doubting your math, im just very suprised at the mastery vs avoidance correlations.
I thought 122mastery would be a lot better than just equal to 132 avoidance rating.
Altho i have noticed something of this effect while using Chardev, since i dont do the math, i let that do it for me (to see the % gain from different gearparts, and i do hope its correct)

Atleast i got 372 of the rockslab on both ring/belt, so im not looking for any upgrades ^^

Keep in mind that I recommend for total damage reduction, not for combat table coverage.

I do this because, were I to recommend for combat table coverage, I would recommend things exactly like "take 50 mastery rating over 120 avoidance rating" and "use lower iLvl items that have mastery over anything lacking mastery". I thought about such recommendations, and realized that most people - even those who believe in CTC - aren't doing them.

Instead I think I'm recommending based on a reasonable middle ground. I gem for mixed mastery/stamina, I reforge largest stat into mastery, but then I treat avoidance as about 80% of the value of mastery. This results in what I believe to be pretty strong recommendations for a good all-around gear set.

Note that I don't do all the math in my last post for each item. Honestly that took three hours of work last night to write. :D My much simpler calculations add up three numbers: Mastery Rating Equivalent, Avoidance Rating Equivalent, and Stamina, and I weigh the relative values of those to compute one number.

In this case, Bouldercrag's number is 904 and Jumbotron's is 894. Anything with a difference of less than five I consider equal. (Hardened Elementium Girdle is 896 and thus equal to the Jumbotron; I list it first with an equal rank number.) I did not know until I'd finished and check my math whether the Bouldercrag or Jumbotron would come out ahead.

I fully expect Petrus and Vexryn and Yappo to do things differently and come out with difference recommendations. I think that the variety is good; if it sparks discussion then everyone learns something, and if you find yourself gearing more along the lines of one particular person, you have a guide you can follow.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby yappo » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:25 pm

Digren wrote:
I fully expect Petrus and Vexryn and Yappo to do things differently and come out with difference recommendations. I think that the variety is good; if it sparks discussion then everyone learns something, and if you find yourself gearing more along the lines of one particular person, you have a guide you can follow.


Sorry do disappoint you, but I want to take as little damage as possible :D

Even though I skip stamina (almost) wherever possible in favour of CTC, I value avoidance too much to steer away from it. There's simply no way I can defend my gearing if I started swapping 1% avoidance for 1.1% block. Note that this still leaves me at some 89% CTC in my ilevel 353 pre-raid gear. I'm having marginal hopes up for the new sockets in the crafted gear come 4.0.6.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Drogba » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:21 am

Thanks for a nice list.

Could you please remove the BOE heroic items that dosnt exist ingame.

Also it lacks the items with agility and mastery on them, which someone else also pointed out.

ie. Necklace of Strife is 2nd best choice after Caelestrasz's Will.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Petrus » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:54 am

I'm going to add the Conclave loot in the next major update but I'm still going to leave off the agi loot, if only because I'm a bit of a purist. Sorry.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Treck » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:08 am

I would agree on not taking any agi loot just cuz it looks pretty, but if it IS BiS, be it with or without agi, it would be stupid NOT to upgrade it based on that it doesnt look like pure tanking loot.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Drogba » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:13 am

Of course it should be passed to whom ever it is the biggest upgrade, but in the end of the day agi gives dodge and that is usefull when tanking.

Anyways its up to you to make the list I respect that.

Maybe you could add something in the initial post about how you rate the items, to me it seems to value Threat higher than I would (As I never seen treat problems except for the first 10 secs of an encounter).

Also if you could remove those BOE heroic items which dosnt exist? Think they were on PTR at an early point dropping from "heroic-trash" which dosnt exist on live as far as Im aware?

Or correct me if Im wrong :)
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Awyndel » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:31 am

IMO, at this point there is only one agility item not easily replaced by an appriopriate tank item. And thats the boe neck. It is BIS untill you get hc modes, because there is no other mastery neck available on the 359 ilevel.

Also interesting is the rep ring because it is very easy to get and you usually get to keep it for a while.

Neither of these require you to pass to a dps user. I don't see any reason not to put these items in gear plans.
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Re: Petrus' Cataclysm Master Gear List

Postby Olen » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:38 pm

I don't think the AGI rep ring is easily replaced either.
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