Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Thels » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:30 am

Has anyone checked to see the viability of this trinket?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47735

Given, it's a 245 item, and shouldn't be viable anymore, but when I check the details:

Without the trinket I have 40245 armor. That gives me 60.65% DR.
With the trinket I have 42037 armor. That gives me 61.72% DR.

If a boss hits me for 100000, then without the trinket on, I take 39350 damage.
If I put my trinket back on, that same hit deals me 38280 damage, meaning the trinket prevented 1070 damage.

1070 damage is 2.72% of 39350 damage. That means that by equipping this trinket, I take 2.72% less physical damage than when I would not be wearing the trinket. I could be mistaken here, but that feels awfully powerful for a trinket from a previous expansion.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:19 am

Thels wrote:Has anyone checked to see the viability of this trinket?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47735

Given, it's a 245 item, and shouldn't be viable anymore, but when I check the details:

Without the trinket I have 40245 armor. That gives me 60.65% DR.
With the trinket I have 42037 armor. That gives me 61.72% DR.

If a boss hits me for 100000, then without the trinket on, I take 39350 damage.
If I put my trinket back on, that same hit deals me 38280 damage, meaning the trinket prevented 1070 damage.

1070 damage is 2.72% of 39350 damage. That means that by equipping this trinket, I take 2.72% less physical damage than when I would not be wearing the trinket. I could be mistaken here, but that feels awfully powerful for a trinket from a previous expansion.


Thels,
Indeed, there's a strange disparity of trinkets right now, because Blizzard nerfed the amount of bonus armor itemized to current Cataclysm gear, but did not go back to do so for prior gear.

Thus, you get armor trinkets in current content Heart of Thunder and Bedrock Talisman that seem quite radically inferior to Unidentifiable Organ or Petrified Twilight Scale.

In point of fact, I have no intention of buying the Valor Points tanking trinket because of this; the "old" Halion trinket (even regular, but certainly heroic) appears to be far superior.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Thels » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:26 am

Myeah, unfortunately I don't have either of those trinkets, since I stopped playing a little after we downed LK on normal and came back for cataclysm.

I would prefer these trinkets over stamina trinkets, since they're only slightly inferior on EH compared to Cataclysm stamina trinkets, but I doubt it would be easy to get a group going for them. Well, maybe the organ, since it's only 10 man, but it's still 7 bosses deep into the instance. At least the rest can be run through on normal.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:14 pm

Thels wrote:Myeah, unfortunately I don't have either of those trinkets, since I stopped playing a little after we downed LK on normal and came back for cataclysm.

I would prefer these trinkets over stamina trinkets, since they're only slightly inferior on EH compared to Cataclysm stamina trinkets, but I doubt it would be easy to get a group going for them. Well, maybe the organ, since it's only 10 man, but it's still 7 bosses deep into the instance. At least the rest can be run through on normal.



The Halion trinket would by far be the easiest to farm. 25% drop rate (he always drops one of the four trinkets), and there's some trash, but to say the least it's far less than doing 7 ICC bosses.

Granted, the trinket only drops on 25-man, but I suspect you could farm it on regular mode at least with far fewer.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Thels » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:21 pm

I've never done the instance in the first place, though I did read up on some tactics. I guess I'll see about any reports of doing it HC with lvl 85's only.

Thanks for the input. :)
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby lythac » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:29 pm

Unidentifiable Organ

Hmm, for WoTLK the sole reason for taking this was the armor - the proc was unreliable to stack with our levels of avoidance. Given lower levels of avoidance it should stack faster and we should retain the stack easier.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby econ21 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:59 pm

Thels wrote:Has anyone checked to see the viability of this trinket?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47735


I never liked that trinket in wotlk, but I agree it does start to look interesting given your damage reduction numbers. Theckhd has computed the equivalence between mastery and armor:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p632421

He finds 7 armour is equivalent to 1 point of mastery rating. Given the amount of mastery on the 359 Tol Barad trinkets, they look to be superior. For example, this one:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=62468

seems to give more passive DR and higher on use avoidance (with agility worth about 60% dodge). But I guess you'd expect 114 item levels to be better.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Thels » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:15 pm

That would mean the HC RS trinket would still be more useful than the Baradin's Wardens trinket?

Well, the base stat, at least. I'm not referring to the proc/on use effect.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:48 am

I would still use the mastery trinket. The armor trinket might give you slightly higher average damage reduction, but the mastery trinket will do a far better job of smoothing out your damage intake, and has a more powerful clicky effect.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:22 pm

theckhd wrote:...and has a more powerful clicky effect.



Oh Theck, I love it when you bring the technical talk to my threads! :)


In all seriousness, I'm finding myself increasingly impressed with both of the Tol Barad trinkets. The on-use agility (quasi-dodge!) trinket is nice for a few fights, and I'm loving the mastery + on-use resistance trinket right now working on Nefarian.

Hrm, which reminds me, I think I need to add the on-use-agi trinket to my gear list here. When I posted it originally I had excluded agility gear, but in practice I would absolutely consider this one viable (along with the mastery/stacking-agility trinket that drops from Siamat in Lost City {if I recall correctly}).

More updates coming soon!
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby yappo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:26 pm

vexryn wrote:
Hrm, which reminds me, I think I need to add the on-use-agi trinket to my gear list here. When I posted it originally I had excluded agility gear, but in practice I would absolutely consider this one viable (along with the mastery/stacking-agility trinket that drops from Siamat in Lost City {if I recall correctly}).

More updates coming soon!


Then you should probably add the epic Earthen Ring (I think it's that faction) agility dps-ring as well. It's about as good a tank-ring as anything blue 346 tanking-itemized you can get.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:32 pm

yappo wrote:
vexryn wrote:
Hrm, which reminds me, I think I need to add the on-use-agi trinket to my gear list here. When I posted it originally I had excluded agility gear, but in practice I would absolutely consider this one viable (along with the mastery/stacking-agility trinket that drops from Siamat in Lost City {if I recall correctly}).

More updates coming soon!


Then you should probably add the epic Earthen Ring (I think it's that faction) agility dps-ring as well. It's about as good a tank-ring as anything blue 346 tanking-itemized you can get.



Notwithstanding the question of agility in particular, I'm still somewhat averse to listing any/all agility gear (or agi/mastery) gear on the list; I'm still trying to not list any direct dps gear (which basically means something with haste or crit).

But I may give a special mention to that ring, at least in the gear-up discussion, as I do think it's a somewhat interesting option specifically for the just-getting-geared-up tank depending on the timing of when they start raids, what's dropping for them, etc.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby yappo » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:04 pm

Noticed you have Carrier Wave Pendant (necklace) listed as unknown as far as drop-location goes. BRC, Ascendant Lord Obsidius.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Bashe » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:07 am

Just popped in to point out Tia's Grace (http://www.wowhead.com/item=56394) which for some reason almost no one mentions in their gearing lists. The agi stacks to 340 which pretty much 1% of dodge on my level of DR.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:52 am

yappo wrote:Noticed you have Carrier Wave Pendant (necklace) listed as unknown as far as drop-location goes. BRC, Ascendant Lord Obsidius.


Fixed. Thanks.



Bashe wrote:Just popped in to point out Tia's Grace (http://www.wowhead.com/item=56394) which for some reason almost no one mentions in their gearing lists. The agi stacks to 340 which pretty much 1% of dodge on my level of DR.


Per prior discussion in the thread, I am adding this trinket, and the Tol Barad trinket with Mastery + On-Use Agility. Now on the list.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Cervana » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:07 am

First of all i'd like to thank you Vyx for this awesome guide, helped me sort out better
Stat priorities and effectively the BiS decisions im taking...
One question...
From what i understand, BiS belt atm is the Jumbotron Belt from the Omnitron DS http://www.wowhead.com/item=59117
But, according to some incoming patch notes for 4.0.6, http://www.wowhead.com/patchnotes=4.0.6-ptr *under Proffesions*
BS items such as http://www.wowhead.com/item=55059 will get a socket and ofc a socket bonus...
According to that change wouldnt the BS belt pass the Omni one, due to its already higher Avoidance stats,
that only get overthrown by Jumbotron's socket&bonus?
Dunno if its a dumb question or w/e but id figure i'd ask since some ppl could have the same thoughts...
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:51 am

Cervana wrote:Dunno if its a dumb question or w/e but id figure i'd ask since some ppl could have the same thoughts...


It isn't a dumb question.

Items have an item budget and currently the epic crafted items have the correct budget. In able to add a socket to the crafted items you have to lower stats already on the item, else the item is then overbudget. Socket bonus is just that - a bonus to the item that does not eat into item budget.

It is fairly easy to see on these 2 belts, the BS belt has 40 more rating compared to the socket on the other belt. Sockets are worth 40 rating.

My bet would be the BS belt loses 30 mastery and 10 dodge to keep it different to the drop and have a different color socket with a different bonus.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Cervana » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:00 pm

Ah... I c...
Tbh its the first time to stumble on the Stat Budget concept for me... >.<
then again its also the first time i have to worry about BiS n stuff...
Thanks alot :D
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby Fiaraa » Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:32 am

I'm not sure if they're on the test realm yet, but does anyone know what colour socket the belt is getting/the bonus?
Or if the shield is intended to get a socket as well?
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby meph » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:03 am

hey guys,

what is your view on the matter of choosing shoulders and helm, right now i'm not sure which is stronger, i definitely want to have either set shoulders or head so that i can have 4 piece set bonus, but both of the offset choices are stronger tanking pieces

so it comes to whether i want to have
Daybreaker Helm + Reinforced Sapphirium Shoulderguards
or
Reinforced Sapphirium Faceguard + Heaving Plates of Protection

The stats are

82 Str
168 Mastery
168 Parry
213 Dodge
128 Hit
Red Gem slot

socket bonus +30 mastery on the daybreaker helm
socket bonus +15 stamina on the shoulders that might end up not being used

or

60 Str
169 Mastery
129 Parry
281 Dodge
113 Hit
Blue Gem slot

socket bonus +45 sta on faceguard
socket bonus +10 sta on heaving plates

---
so far BoE shoulders + faceguard look like a better choice, but the BoE shoulders do not have Heroic version so it might be a waste when we actually get to kill Heroic Valiona (i may be thinking too much into the future here:) )

What do you think
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:30 pm

For those following the guide, I just finished a massive re-write of the gearing up guide, including discussion of all of the various epics available and where to spend your gold.

Hope the updated version is helpful. As always, let me know if you see any problems or errors! Thanks!
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby econ21 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:17 am

That's a very comprehensive, insightful and well presented guide, Vexryn, thanks!

My only comment is that, next time you revise it, you might think about listing the items from best to worst instead of the opposite. It's more intuitive to me, at least, and I guess over time most people will look increasing towards the BiS.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:50 am

econ21 wrote:My only comment is that, next time you revise it, you might think about listing the items from best to worst instead of the opposite. It's more intuitive to me, at least, and I guess over time most people will look increasing towards the BiS.



In point of fact, I've been planning to do this anyway, so I went ahead and did it. Gear is now sorted from highest ilvl to lowest. In addition, all gear has exact ilvl indicated for easily reference (especially now that there are multiple levels of epics that have different ilvl, so color alone is not an indicator).

Enjoy!
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby econ21 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:17 am

Wow, even nicer - tx. It's very easy to scroll down the list and compare the items. If you want to sort within item levels, you might consider a ranking based on secondary stats:

(mastery + avoidance) > (2x avoidance) > (mastery+threat) > (avoidance + threat)

As there seems to be consensus that threat is not an issue at the moment and mastery is better than parry/dodge for both damage reduction and combat table coverage. Gem slots and bonuses may complicate things though.

The reputation boots need moving up a notch - they are 359 not 346 (the colour is right, just not the ilvl and ranking).

You might want to add a couple of epics with agility and mastery:

Don'Rodrigo's Fabulous necklace:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=67137

and the Signet of the Elder Council:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=62362

The latter is nice, as it is a reputation item and better than most pre-raid alternatives. The necklace is BoE and better than raid alternatives outside of heroic modes imo. I just spent a ridiculous sum of gold on the necklace, but looking at your list, don't regret it.
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Re: Vexryn's Cataclysm Master Tank Gear List & Gear Progression

Postby vexryn » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:21 am

econ21 wrote:Wow, even nicer - tx. It's very easy to scroll down the list and compare the items. If you want to sort within item levels, you might consider a ranking based on secondary stats:

(mastery + avoidance) > (2x avoidance) > (mastery+threat) > (avoidance + threat)

As there seems to be consensus that threat is not an issue at the moment and mastery is better than parry/dodge for both damage reduction and combat table coverage. Gem slots and bonuses may complicate things though.



Yeah, I had actually started doing this informally in a few places when I was reworking the list, with plans to go back and do a more substantive re-sort on this basis in a few days. I don't want to spend a ton of time 'debating' exactly whether piece A is better than piece B, but a general sort with a standard and reasonable formula would, I think, still be helpful for many.
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