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Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:54 am
by Digren
Every socket bonus I've seen is good. Free points is free points.

The stamina/mastery discussion is going to focus on whether we should be using pure mastery gems, or mastery/sta gems in yellow slots. There's no indication we'll consider stacking stamina in lieu of the socket bonus. All of course subject to change in a future tier.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:41 pm
by econ21
Digren wrote:The stamina/mastery discussion is going to focus on whether we should be using pure mastery gems, or mastery/sta gems in yellow slots.


I'll be interested to read what you come up with.

Maybe I am reading too much into what you've just written but I would not confine the discussion to yellow slots. There's also the possibility of using mastery/parry gems in red slots and mastery/sta gems in blue slots. If you prefer pure mastery over stamina/mastery in a yellow, you'd prefer stamina/mastery over pure stamina in a blue. Ditto mastery/parry vs stamina/parry in a red.

I'd also throw stamina vs avoidance into the mix, as Vexryn's argument for mastery is that it reduces expected damage intake, which dodge and parry do even better if I am understanding things right[1]. I know there is also the "small average hit" argument for block capping, but that is not Vexryn's argument.


[1] For my main, 177 extra dodge rating gives 1% avoidance, so 1 dodge gives me 0.00565 damage reduction (1/177)
79.68 mastery rating gives 1% block, so 1 mastery gives 0.00502 damage reduction (0.4*1/79.68)

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:23 am
by Rhiannon
econ21 wrote:[1] For my main, 177 extra dodge rating gives 1% avoidance, so 1 dodge gives me 0.00565 damage reduction (1/177)
79.68 mastery rating gives 1% block, so 1 mastery gives 0.00502 damage reduction (0.4*1/79.68)


Dodge/parry rating is subject to diminishing returns., mastery is not. At any reasonable value of dodge/parry rating, an equal amount of mastery rating will result in more average damage reduction. 1% dodge/parry = 176.7 rating only when no diminishing returns are in effect i.e. never.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:31 am
by econ21
EDIT: Rhiannon and theckhd, you are right - I made a mistake in the calculations. :oops:

Mastery is better than avoidance for expected damage reduction, my bad.

However, if I am calculating it right this time, the difference is not so large that one would prefer a mixed mastery gem to a pure avoidance one by that metric.

I calculate that the value of a unit of dodge rating for me in terms of expected damage reduction is equal to 0.004854 (i.e. 1/206).
The corresponding value of a unit of mastery rating which is 0.00502 (0.4/79.68)

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:37 am
by theckhd
econ21 wrote:If I have made a mistake in the calculations, I'd be interested to know


You made a mistake. It should have been pretty obvious that there was a mistake as soon as you noticed that the rating->dodge conversion factor you were getting was 177 no matter what amount of dodge % you put into the calculation.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:27 pm
by pyrile
Is the bladeward weapon enchant relevant anymore? I have it on my toon now and it procs all the time

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:23 pm
by theothersteve7
pyrile wrote:Is the bladeward weapon enchant relevant anymore? I have it on my toon now and it procs all the time


Windwalk is the spiritual successor to Blade Ward, and is substantially better. Both run about 1 PPM, so the buff is up about evenly between them, but Windwalk provides 600 dodge as opposed to 200 parry. It's almost exactly three times as good.

Windwalk is worth about 100 dodge rating. Blade Ward is worth about 33 parry rating.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:18 am
by twilytgardnfaery
Very minor little thing, but in the enchantment portion, under weapons, you have the Pyrium Weapon Chain listed as Enchanting rather than Blacksmithing. :oops: Fantastic guide, as always, thank you for breaking it all down. It's been a while since gemming and enchanting has actually required thought, so it's nice to have the guidance in getting used to that again!

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:29 pm
by excalibrax
[*][Fine Ember Topaz] : +20 Parry Rating and +20 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting

I am debating this over for Red gems over the recomended Sta/parry gem, Would this not be better?

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:12 am
by yappo
The weapon chain is blacksmithing and not enchanting.

I'm not raiding, so my opinion might very well be void, but here goes:

I'm throwing out stamina left and right in favour of mastery and stamina in that order. While the random PUG hates my appearance when I drop in, my guild healer loves me. 135 or 150 k health just doesn't matter, but an aggregated 6% extra avoidance/block sure does.

At an 340 ilevel my 5% miss, 11.5% dodge, 11.8% (yes, I know the difference ought to be a full %) parry and 45% block gives me around 73% aggregate. I think I can push it to 75% without upgrading gear. The alternative (stamina-stacking) would drop me to 67%, and I personally prefer staying alive to pulling with more initial health.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:49 pm
by Digren
excalibrax wrote:[*][Fine Ember Topaz] : +20 Parry Rating and +20 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting

I am debating this over for Red gems over the recomended Sta/parry gem, Would this not be better?

We're really just now getting the first reports as to whether stamina or mastery are better for leveling out healing and improving survivability in typical encounters. Your report and the one below it both seem to indicate mastery. We'll keep watching.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:30 pm
by 99sitr
Would it be advisable to start a pure avoidance set for encounters like Chimaeron in BRD? As that boss has a fairly slow melee and pure avoidance is a lot more Important that EH for the 1st phase and even in the second phase a difference of 30k hp wouldn't be that much of a difference.

Here is my current profile Vonkaiser of Team Intensity.

I'm still getting mats for the more appropriate enchants so disregard those.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:21 pm
by Digren
I don't know that building a specific set for any heroic is worth the effort. You'll outlevel it fairly quickly regardless as your general gear set, and that of your healer and DPS, improve.

That said, the increased focus on mastery is basically building an avoidance set. Remember that mastery rating reduces incoming damage taken more than the same amount of dodge or parry rating for any geared 85 tank. Thus a mastery set > avoidance set in all cases*.


* barring encounters where a block applies some sort of secondary debuff or bleed, but a dodge or parry does not.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:53 am
by econ21
It might be worth mentioning that a few enchants are likely to be very expensive at least early on, as they require two maelstrom crystals that come from disenchanting epics: specifically greater stamina on chest and greater mastery on gloves (both require 2 iirc); and windwalk (requires 6). I'll be using cheaper fallbacks for a while - +55 stamina on chest, +50 mastery on gloves (not on your list last time I checked) and mending on weapon.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:29 am
by Digren
twilytgardnfaery wrote:Very minor little thing, but in the enchantment portion, under weapons, you have the Pyrium Weapon Chain listed as Enchanting rather than Blacksmithing. :oops: Fantastic guide, as always, thank you for breaking it all down. It's been a while since gemming and enchanting has actually required thought, so it's nice to have the guidance in getting used to that again!

Fixed, thanks!

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:30 am
by Digren
econ21 wrote:It might be worth mentioning that a few enchants are likely to be very expensive at least early on, as they require two maelstrom crystals that come from disenchanting epics: specifically greater stamina on chest and greater mastery on gloves (both require 2 iirc); and windwalk (requires 6). I'll be using cheaper fallbacks for a while - +55 stamina on chest, +50 mastery on gloves (not on your list last time I checked) and mending on weapon.

Both the ones you mention are already on the list. They aren't flagged as best, but they aren't best. Both are pretty high for the respective slots, though, so someone unwilling to pay for the top-of-the-line should go down the list and find those.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:04 am
by 99sitr
Digren wrote:I don't know that building a specific set for any heroic is worth the effort. You'll outlevel it fairly quickly regardless as your general gear set, and that of your healer and DPS, improve.

That said, the increased focus on mastery is basically building an avoidance set. Remember that mastery rating reduces incoming damage taken more than the same amount of dodge or parry rating for any geared 85 tank. Thus a mastery set > avoidance set in all cases*.


* barring encounters where a block applies some sort of secondary debuff or bleed, but a dodge or parry does not.



I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:26 am
by Digren
99sitr wrote:I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.

Ahh ok. Still mastery rating > avoidance rating for reducing that damage, too, and for making it less spiky.

With regard to mastery >/< stamina, I haven't been reading the raid encounter forum yet. Let's watch what folks are trying and their success rates, since analytical results are unlikely this early.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:03 pm
by Treck
99sitr wrote:I was referring to the Chimaeron fight, in Blackwing Descent the raid instance. In that encounter the boss' melee swing is on a seemingly longer timer than normal bosses, and given the fact that he hits for well over 160k per hit due to the mechanics of the fight.

Chimaeron might aswell be hitting for 10k, as that is all the healing you need to take while tanking him.
If your having one tank taking the breaks, and one taking dubbleattacks, all that he has to do is survive the first attack with more than 10k hp, meaning if he has 170k hp, he will always survive, with no CDs/block/avoids.
I would DEFINATELY avoid making fightspecific gear for this fight, as it is one of the absolutly easiest encounters to keep the tanks alive on (normalmode ofc).
You can have a dps of ANY class (that can taunt) tanking this encounter, having the 2nd tank take all the dubbleattacks, your tank will effectivly need 10k worth of healing each 2-4 sec, try finding a fight thats will require less healing on the tank :P
If the dubbleattack tank can block/dodge/parry one of his 2 attacks, he wont die.
With decent gear, only like 1/10 attacks will both go through "normally", and even then its very easy surviving.

As for the mastery vs sta discussion, id personally choose 1.5sta over 1mastery.
According to my healers im easier to heal (compared to warrior) and id take that as a pretty good sign that its working.
If you would be getting really close to beeing blockcapped, id say its worth a lot of health going the last bit to reach it.
But as it is now, its a bit of a leap trying to reach all the way, making sta stronger, and more reliable.
Personally i cant wait till we can reach blockcap reliably, its gonna be a lot of fun.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:52 am
by econ21
My gemming is a mess at the moment - I've been using whatever my JC alt can cut. But my gear has now settled down to pretty much its pre-raid state and so I am thinking about being consistent in my gemming. I've tried to quantify the stamina vs mastery trade off I face and this is what I have come up with:

I have 13 gem slots: 4 red, 3 yellow, 2 blue and 4 prismatic. I want to match all gem slots.

If I go for stamina (pure in blue and prismatic, mixed with mastery and parry in yellow and red respectively), it gives me 570 stamina and 60 mastery.

If I go for mastery (pure in yellow and prismatic, mixed with stamina and parry in yello and red respectively), it gives me 60 stamina and 400 mastery.

I believe 1 stamina gives 14*1.05*1.15*1.05 hit points (with 5% kings, 15% talents, 5% plate spec).

I understand 1 mastery gives 0.00502% damage reduction (79.68 mastery for 1% block, so dr is 0.4/76.68)

Hence gemming for stamina would give me 10118 hps and 0.3% damage reduction. I have around 130k hp buffed with my current messy gemming, so that's nearly 8% health for me.

Gemming for mastery would give me 107 hps and 2.008% damage reduction (or, in other words, 5% block; currently I have 82.5% avoidance plus block with my messy gemming)

8% more health or 2% more damage reduction? It seems quite a close call.

EDITED: To include KysenMurrin's corrections.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:20 am
by KysenMurrin
You've missed the spec passive +15% stamina bonus. 570 Stam would give you, I think, 9636 health.

Edit: I'm wrong, I also forgot 5% stam from plate spec. 10118 health.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:06 am
by econ21
Thanks for the corrections. It leaves me in a quandry though - how to choose between 10k hitpoints or 2% damage reduction? I like the idea of damage reduction, but the gain seems rather small whereas the boost to hitpoints seems large. If we think about a simple time to live calculation, the hitpoints seem preferred as the proportionately bigger increase for me. However, in 5 mans, it frequently seems my (priest) guild healer gets mana starved in tougher fights, so maybe I should go for mastery. (My casual impression is that pally healers seem to cope with mana better atm.)

EDIT: As an addendum, in the end, I've gone with mixed stamina/mastery gems all round. They happened to be what my alt could make in numbers given her rares, but now whichever side of the argument is right, I've gemmed wrong. But at least not too wrong.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:03 am
by yappo
Gemming for mastery won't give you 2% mitigation.

Your healers aren't interested in the damage you're currently not taking. Given the numbers you've provided your healers see a 17.5% risk of you taking an additional 70% damage (unblocked hit). Gemming mastery will remove in the order of 30% of that risk, so we're talking 20% mitigation.

Edit: (purely physical and avoidable/blockable damage, of course. Magic damage isn't included at all)

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:46 am
by econ21
Maybe this is an issue of semantics. I am trying to find out how much your overall damage taken is reduced - that's not the same as mitigation, as avoidance also comes into it. Healers will care about the total damage you receive, as it affects your survival and their mana.

I've redone the calculations to be more accurate and reflect my current gear (upgaded the belt from the JP to crafted one, so lost a red gem slot).

I make it that, gemming primarily for stamina, I would have:
Health: 155164
Block: 54.33%

Gemming primarily for mastery, I would have:
Health: 145685
Block: 58.34

So gemming primarily for mastery rather than stamina would gain me 4% block at the cost of 6% of my health.

Either way, my dodge is 11.1% and parry 12.18%. My armour reduces melee damage by 60.45%.

Suppose a level 88 boss makes a melee attack that potentially would hit for one unit of damage. We have chances to competely avoid the damage by miss, parry and dodge; and a chance to reduce it by 40% through block. Any damage that gets through is mitigated by armor.

The expected damage the stamina tank would take is:
[1-(0.044+0.1158+0.105)-(0.4*0.5297)]*(1-0.6045)=0.2070

The expected damage the mastery tank would take is:
[1-(0.044+0.1158+0.105)-(0.4*0.5784)]*(1-0.6045)=0.1994

Maybe I am using the wrong term, but I will call one minus these fractions my total damage reduction.

So gemming for mastery rather than stamina reduces your expected damage by 0.0075 units or 3.6% of what the stamina tank would take.

If we think about how many melee attacks it would take to kill the tank, we can divide the health by one minus the total damage reduction.

The stamina tank would require 749695 strikes (or, more realistically, strikes that could cause a sum total of 749695 damage).
The mastery tank would require 730528 strikes.

Now this last calculation is only strictly relevant when soloing (stamina would be better), as for groups we would need to factor in the healer. I don't have a good way of quantifying the gain to the healer in mana. You could say that if you are taking 3.6% less damage, you are saving the healer 3.6% mana. But I am not sure this captures the "flow" aspect of mana: in a long fight, what matters is mana expended minus mana regenerated. It may be that a modest increase in mana expended causes it to rapidly outstrip mana regenerated and cause a wipe.

I am not posting this to make an argument either way on stamina vs mastery, just trying to quantify the trade-off when gemming.

Re: 4.0.3a Item Enhancement Guide

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:38 am
by yappo
I believe you should consider the stamina-tank taking 100% of base-line damage and weigh that against a lower than baseline damage intake versus the increased risk of lower stamina killing the mastery-tank one attack earlier.

Thus you're really only interested in looking at the damage-spikes (unblocked hits). Without doing any calcs I think we're talking 17.5 versus 13.5 % of all incoming attacks, because it's these attacks that should have your healers cough uncomfortably. Ie, we're removing some 20% of all incoming damage-spikes by going mastery, which is fantastic provided that the lower stamina isn't suicidal to begin with.

When gear allows us to press beyond the 90% limit for a 'stamina stacker', then I firmly believe he/she will be ordered to reconfigure for mastery because that would remove 50% of all incoming spikes (provided reconfiguring adds 5%+ extra block).

As we get closer to reaching 102.4 by going mastery (and eventually reach it), cleaning up your act, so to say, will indeed become manadatory. I can't see your raidleader accepting a 5% risk of eating 170% spikes when lowering health from 220k to 200k would reduce said risk to zero.

Again, magic damage is not taken into consideration at all.

Edited to clear out some obvious spelling errors.