4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Dankoviich » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:41 am

First of all thanks for the incredible guide, it is one of the best I have seen. I just had a quick question for you that I haven't been able to find an answer to easily (I very well could have missed it and if I have I apologize in advance).

When evaluating pieces of gear with no mastery do you take into account reforging for mastery or do you just use the given values? I ask because obviously any piece without mastery should be reforged into mastery so I was wondering if this would change anything or if you already account for this. Thanks for your time :)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Kalsam » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:55 am

It looks like he's accounted for it already, Dank.


I'm pleased to see that my own calculations from before the patch were fairly spot on with one exception being the difference between the Helm or Chest for the 4set. I ended up choosing the helm due to the higher value of Mastery on the chest from Beth. *shrugs*

Minor note, Digren. In the trinkets, the Essence of Eternal Flame is linking to Spidersilk Spindle. Just thought you should know. :)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Dankoviich » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:08 am

Ok sweet and I went with the same setup (tier helm, beth chest) as you did for now for various reasons (drops, valor caps and making 4 piece as quickly as possible). That may change in the future due to ease of drops based on heroic boss difficulty etc.

For now though I am pretty much sticking to this list outside of that (although I have reforged a little bit into threat stats until my healers tell me I can't have them anymore lol, on some fights missing initial attacks is just not ideal).

Thanks for the quick reply and helpful comments Kalsam :)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:54 pm

Yes everything has been gemmed and reforged as per my item enhancement guide. Obviously enchants are irrelevant as long as you don't leave the slot empty.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Dankoviich » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Very cool and I kind of figured as much just had to ask :) This guide has been a huge asset to me as I do not have the time to crunch all these numbers myself. Thanks to Theck as well as his numbers have also been very useful.

Another question I wanted to ask is do you have a base stam number you like for FL normal and heroic content? I am at about 175k with block cap (using a mastery elixir as opposed to stam flask) and 5% hit/12 exp (I like a to carry a little bit of threat stats and to me giving up ~2-3% dodge/parry for hit/exp caps against lvl 85 mobs which are the usual level of adds seems like a decent trade off). This puts me around 195k raid buffed which seems ideal for content so far but I wanted to get your opinion on it.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Rusa » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:52 pm

Forgive the derp moment I'm having this minute, but I should definatly get the Mirrored Boots over the Heroic Cracked Obsidian Stompers or just preference?

Today is not a day of high thinking for me.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:54 am

Dankoviich wrote:Very cool and I kind of figured as much just had to ask :) This guide has been a huge asset to me as I do not have the time to crunch all these numbers myself. Thanks to Theck as well as his numbers have also been very useful.

Another question I wanted to ask is do you have a base stam number you like for FL normal and heroic content? I am at about 175k with block cap (using a mastery elixir as opposed to stam flask) and 5% hit/12 exp (I like a to carry a little bit of threat stats and to me giving up ~2-3% dodge/parry for hit/exp caps against lvl 85 mobs which are the usual level of adds seems like a decent trade off). This puts me around 195k raid buffed which seems ideal for content so far but I wanted to get your opinion on it.

It really depends on if your healers are happy. It sounds okay to me, but it's more important that it's okay to them.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Vasilissa » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:56 pm

This guide is great although as far as I can read it's based on getting 4T12 pieces. Is it really worth getting 4T12 even though tier pieces have quite huge pool of threat stats?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:54 pm

Vasilissa wrote:This guide is great although as far as I can read it's based on getting 4T12 pieces. Is it really worth getting 4T12 even though tier pieces have quite huge pool of threat stats?

I don't recommend four tier pieces at all. In fact, I explicitly ignore the value of tier bonuses when ranking items. If a tier piece is listed high, it's because it's that good all by itself. If you want to go for the tier set, you can look at the relative rankings of each tier piece to decide which ones to use and which one to skip.

Do keep in mind, though, that I recommend for combat table coverage, and all pieces have been gemmed per the mastery-heavy strategy, and reforged for mastery or dodge/parry, as per my item enhancement guide. So the pieces with mastery/threat become pieces with mastery/threat/dodge and do a decent job of combat table coverage in the absence of a better mastery/dodge piece.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Vasilissa » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:04 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll read through it again then and decide which pieces to take. Thanks a lot :)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby DonTirri » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi, first post here.

Anyway, I love this list, allows me to quickly check whether to roll for an upgrade or what to buy etc.
EDIT: NVM, posted about porcelain crab but then realized it was discussed already in the thread. Although I'd like to add that I've noticed it's ICD to line up somewhat nicely with Holy Shield (Yes, I'm one of those lazy people who macroed it to CS/HotR), atleast it seems to me that whenever I got the crab proc, I also have HS up. Just some food for thought.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Ecmelt » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:53 am

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/pala ... ,,CBE40HA2

What do you think about this *goal* i have from pre-heroic content. Also ignored the exalted ring since that will happen even after starting heroic i believe.

1 trinket for stamina so not so gimped on that either. avoidance cap should happen in raid etc. Not going for 4x tier 11 since after avoidance cap reached i really dont believe it is so good.

Any suggestions on how to improve this is more than welcome.

With these items changing with heroic versions the reforges to mastery from dodge or parry can be removed to stay on cap with more avoidance than block. Anything i'm missing at all?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby shaak » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:49 am

I don't understand how the Ruthless cape is ranked above the Mantle of Patience, I just compared them and lost .24% avoidance. Surely 59 stamina and 60 armor isn't worth that much of a avoidance loss?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Arincia » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Was looking around on wow head for some easy to acquire ret gear and saw this and was wondering if anyone could confirm/deny it?

http://www.wowheadnews.com/blog=190236/ ... ear-in-4-2
7/6: Clarified info about tier as well as upgradable gear with Firestones. All VP items can be upgraded with Firestones--you 'use' the stone on an item. Source: http://www.img-share.net/uploads/16388gmfirestones.jpg


This would easily push the valor ring as the 2nd tank ring to go with the exalted rep ring if true so that's why I'm asking.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Eanin » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:17 pm

shaak wrote:I don't understand how the Ruthless cape is ranked above the Mantle of Patience, I just compared them and lost .24% avoidance. Surely 59 stamina and 60 armor isn't worth that much of a avoidance loss?


I have to echo this sentiment. I just can't see how losing 134 dodge is made up for by 26 mastery, 59 stamina and 61 armor. Honestly, this ranking casts doubt on the methodology of this entire guide.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Torias » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:49 am

I don't remember the exact weights being used but I think the guide rates Mastery ~3 times as valuable as avoidance, and stamina about ~1.5 times as valuable. That's pretty rough estimation on my part but should line up with the rankings, at least for the most part.

Going by that, 26*3 + 59*1.5 = 166.5, which is greater than the 134 dodge lost. This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings that I don't really subscribe to myself. But that's the rationale, as I understand it. I'll edit and add some sources if I manage to find them.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Ecmelt » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:53 am

Mastery Rating 1.00 (always the baseline)
Dodge or Parry Rating 0.36 (CTC value)
Stamina 0.66 (just a hare less than 2/3rds of mastery rating)
Armor 0.143 (1/7th mastery rating)
All Threat 0.00

he posted it before in this thread which is where im just copying from. Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use. 26*1+59*0.66+61*0.143 = 73.663 - 134*0.36= 48.24
73.663-48.24= 25.423 So its pretty accurate and is 25.423 points higher for these stat weights.

edit: If you only and only look for avoidance then 26-48.24 = -22.24 would make 2nd item better. However you dont only look at avoidance.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Eanin » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:13 pm

This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings.


I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.

Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use.


It casts doubt on the weights, which is a part of the methodology, and therefore casts doubt on the methodology. I wasn't criticizing the arithmetic.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Torias » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:12 pm

You certainly have a point, and it's actually something I've wondered about (and subsequently rejected, hence my not sporting the cloak in question and instead sticking with the quest cape, too).

I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings. On some level I'm tempted to say that it's a level of precision that just isn't going to make a noticeable enough difference: I'm pretty sure any set of arbitrary weightings/ratings is going to break down when you start talking about moving 10s of points out of 1000s. On the other hand, what's the point in theorycrafting communities if we just hand-wave and say "Eh, it doesn't really matter" whenever a specific-enough question is asked.

I've spent the last little while attempting to come up with rationalisations for the high ranking of the cloak but I'm just not managing it. It seems implausible that an amount of Dodge is attainable that would cause DR to make up the difference. Even if it is plausible it seems unrealistic to use as a yardstick here.

Perhaps it is time the stat weights were re-examined?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:06 pm

The stamina/CTC trade off in the weightings is the same as used in gems and Blizzard's item values. It's been endlessly debated, but there's not much consensus and it seems to be apples vs oranges. I don't think theorycraft helps resolve it (or at least it hasn't so far).

The avoidance vs mastery trade off is valuing avoidance solely in terms of combat table coverage. If it was valued in terms of damage reduction, the weights would be much closer. It is a little extreme - reducing damage has some value - but I guess the guide is written for people like myself and I suspect the majority of causal tankadins, who are plugging away trying to get to 102.4%.

We do nonetheless make trade-offs with stamina (I am loathe to go two mastery trinkets, for example) and using the gem trade-off has a certain logic.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:27 pm

To echo Econ21, the weightings do not favour CTC over stamina in gearing to any real significance. The weightings favour CTC and stamina over MDR.

1 Mastery = 2/3 stamina

(Blizzard itemisation)

1 Mastery = 0.66 stamina

(Digren's weightings)

The difference is 0.66 being a touch under 0.6666666666666666666666666667 (Yeah I don't know how to do the dot for recurring) meaning it favours mastery gemming over stamina, but it does not really effect the value of Mastery compared to stamina on gear as for this sort of thing 0.66 = 2/3

--------------

Also the CTC difference is ~0.20% - Strength was not considered.

--------------

Personally I feel that MDR should be given a slightly higher consideration but not to take the focus away from CTC. My preference would be a value of 0.52 (0.25*1.0+0.75*0.36) which still leans very heavily towards CTC but puts 1% avoidance over 1% CTC.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:43 pm

Might be worth adding under the cloak section but the healing cloak from Sinestra is pretty awesome if you reforge the haste. The socket actually ends up making it fairly useful.

Its got haste /mastery good stam and int ( so no parry from strength)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Showania » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:01 pm

Wasn't that cloak brought up before? Also, I would think if you were going to go that route the Rhyolith cloak would make the Sinestra cloak obsolete, especially since it's far easier to obtain. After you socket the Rhyolith cloak with a few fractured amberjewels, you end up with more mastery than the Sinestra cloak. 153 on the Sinestra cloak vs. after the gems 175 on the Rhyolith cloak.

Also, you gain 22 mastery over the difference of 4 stam and armor, and the hit rating on the Rhyolith cloak is higher than the haste of the Sinestra cloak, meaning you can get more dodge/parry from the reforge.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:45 am

Torias wrote:This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings

No it's not. If it was, I wouldn't value stamina and armor.

What it is is consistent. Far too many people say they want to "maximize combat table coverage" but then argue that "No, no, in this one case here, I actually want to do something else." That philosophy leads to inefficient gearing.

If you want Maximum Damage Reduction, use an MDR guide or set Mr. Robot to provide that for you. But then don't be surprised when the guide suggests dodge gems over mastery. If you don't want to value stamina at 2/3 mastery, then don't be surprised when guides stop recommending any stamina gems.

Eanin wrote:I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.


It's not a max-CTC guide. No sane person would gear for CTC alone (choosing highest mastery rating + 1/3 avoidance for each piece) in the absence of any other stats, because that would lead to much-lower-iLvl pieces popping up to the top of the list periodically, when a newer piece with more stamina and armor is clearly better.

There's nothing weird going on. You've made an assumption about the guide and are troubled that your assumption isn't to be panning out.

Torias wrote:I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings.


It's your own assumption that this is a CTC weighting. :) You made an assumption and are now surprised that it doesn't fit the data.

Both of you take a step back, and think about how difficult it is to provide a guide for all the possible different tiers of tanks in so many different tiers of content. Even if you toss out the highest-end tanks (who rarely need guides like this), you have people trying to survive heroics all the way to people working through Firelands. In each case the tanks need a certain amount of stamina from their standard gear set (so that with just a trinket swap or two they can have enough for each encounter), but they also need to have a predictable amount of damage intake (low too, yes, but predictable is better than low for most people). And that ignores the variation due to healer preference (i.e. how your healers want you to gear to make things easier on them).

Think of each gear set as a point on a three-axis chart, [X,Y,Z]. Let X be the correct amount of block for that character, Y the stamina, Z the avoidance. Starting with a naked character, and using the gear available to that character based on available content, I have to create weightings that result in given slopes Mxy and Mxz such that the resulting vector hits just the right spot when the character fills their last open gear slot.

Doing that for all characters with just one set of weightings may be impossible. But I think this set is pretty close. What doesn't make sense though is using different weightings for different slots in the same gear set at the same time. That doesn't yield a vector.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Staatt » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Wow, well put! I've found the guide to be HUGELY valuable, and I appreciate the time you put into it. Keep up the good work!
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