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4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Get help with your character's gear

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, majiben, lythac, Digren

Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:23 am

djlar wrote:Why is still agility on the list (on page 1)?

Doh. Gear strategy fixed. thanks.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:39 am

Nikachelle wrote:I don't bother fiddling with the weightings because the one time I did, it messed everything up.

For a direct example... I have the heroic Maloriak helm. Which is rated VERY highly in your list. Askmrrobot.com lists ALL the T12 helms, offset or not, as better than the heroic helm I already have.


When I adjusted which stat to reforge on the gear I, too, see T12 as slightly better. The Malriak helm is still very highly rated though:

For a specific example on this helm:
Dragon Bone Warhelm (heroic)
2891 armor
293 strength
578 stamina
135 expertise rating
325 mastery rating
1 meta socket
1 red socket
45 stamina socket bonus

Gems and socket bonus
90 stamina
20 parry rating
20 mastery rating
(I don't value the block value or armor from the meta gem for simplicity; just including the stamina is enough to put all helms with a meta slot ahead of all helms without one)

Reforging
-54 expertise rating
+54 dodge rating (or parry rating; totally doesn't matter)

Totals:
Stamina: 668
Mastery Rating Equivalent (Mastery + Armor/7): 758
Avoidance Rating Equivalent (Dodge + Parry): 157
Weighted Total 1255 points

Immolation Faceguard (heroic)
3057 armor
289 strength
689 stamina
440 parry rating
193 expertise rating
1 meta socket
1 blue socket
45 stamina socket bonus

Gems and socket bonus
120 stamina
20 mastery rating

Reforging
-176 parry rating
+176 mastery rating

Totals:
Stamina: 809
Mastery Rating Equivalent (Mastery + Armor/7): 633
Avoidance Rating Equivalent (Dodge + Parry): 346
Weighted Total 1291 points
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:45 pm

Digren wrote:Like I've said, if I could find a way to easily provide both MDR and CTC values for all gear, I would. But I won't maintain all of those in bbcode by hand. I'd need a way to export from spreadsheet.


What spreadsheet do you use?

I use excel and it makes the bbcode for me now, how many columns of data do you have?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:14 pm

Gah...

Digren, seems we'll have to reevaluate the honor PvP gear with mastery. If I understand blue-posts correctly you're shopping 371 honor gear, not 365, from the start of Season 10 (that's today or tomorrow depending on US/EU realm). While six ilevels isn't a huge change it's still a change.

I'll check the cloak and helmet tomorrow. Wouldn't be surprised if we have a new BiS helmet for the non-raiding tank.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Feitan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:17 pm

is tier 10 cape way superior than mantle of patience? or the last could also be considered close to bis pre heroic raid?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:29 pm

Feitan wrote:is tier 10 cape way superior than mantle of patience? or the last could also be considered close to bis pre heroic raid?

You mean the season 10 cape? Yes it's on the list as better than the mantle.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:39 pm

I've added the PvP helmets to the failsafe.

My napkin math places the 371 Season 10 Honor helmet right in the middle of what you can get in Cata tier 1 raids normal mode. The 384 looks like a somewhat poor drop from Firelands normal mode.

Given that 1.5 JP = 1 Honor and 1 VP = 1 CP it'a actually pretty easy to assign an availability rating for them. Given your ranks both helmets are BiS for their rank by a very, very, very wide margin. (rank 2 and 3 respectively)

Conincidentally the PvP cloak you have listed would be rank 3 in your list due to the 1:1 VP/CP conversion ratio.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby boneyjellyfish » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:05 am

Digren wrote:
Sohryu wrote:
Kamenev wrote:I believe that [Dreadfire Drape] with 2x [Fractured Amberjewel] is also a candidate for BiS cloak.

Code: Select all
Dreadfire Drape: 745 armor | 384 stamina | 193 mastery | 63  avoidance (hit reforged)
S10 PvP Cloak:   718 armor | 360 stamina | 160 mastery | 68  avoidance (parry from strength)
Al'akir Cloak:   673 armor | 321 stamina | 143 mastery | 203 avoidance (rating + parry from strength)

Thanks for the guide!


that sounds interesting!
Other opinions on that Back?

Yes indeed. I have the normal version of that cloak just behind (effectively tied with) the heroic Permafrost capes. The heroic version is best in slot by a pretty wide margin.

Blizzard, alas, doesn't fully grasp the effects of itemization on desirability. They want us to avoid agility gear, but then they give us gear like this that drips with mastery, without making an equivalent strength version.


Would you rank heroic Wings of Flame just below that? Not quite as much mastery, but the intellect is more useful than agility.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:16 am

Argh! Why does Blizzard let us use intellect gear as prot? I don't want to put it on the list!

You are probably correct, it would probably go that high. That said, per Theck's analysis, agility is actually much more useful than intellect for threat. Does WoG scale with intellect at all? If not, it wouldn't be more valuable than agility.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby boneyjellyfish » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:21 am

Digren wrote:Argh! Why does Blizzard let us use intellect gear as prot? I don't want to put it on the list!

You are probably correct, it would probably go that high. That said, per Theck's analysis, agility is actually much more useful than intellect for threat. Does WoG scale with intellect at all? If not, it wouldn't be more valuable than agility.

Don't we get 2 SP per point of intellect? Were that the case, threat-wise that would be marginally useful in terms of the HotR nova , HW and Cons. I'm not sure if Theck tests HotR in his 939 rotation for that table, but if those numbers were from only using CS, then intellect would probably go up slightly. Personally, I'm not even thinking about threat at all, and I don't think that's even a topic for discussion regarding these agility and intellect cloaks. I think the additional mana would be worthwhile, kind of like why some people take Hallowed Ground. It would give a slight quality of life increase by giving more maximum mana and more mana returns from judgement and divine plea.

*edit*

Looking at wowpedia I see that it's 1SP per point of intellect, and 15 mana. So that would be (with kings/mark) 268.8 SP and 3763.2 mana, which would be ~15% mana increase.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:22 pm

HotR Nova does not scale with spellpower at all. Many of our other abilities do (Judgement, Censure, AS, HoW, Cons, Holy Wrath, and of course WoG), but their spellpower coefficient is generally worse than their AP coefficient. As a result, Int/SP are really terrible threat stats, even for AoE.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:59 am

Digren, I think I've identified a major difference in how we look at tank-ranks.

My belief is that from 4.2, and most likely throughout this expansion, we have six tanking ranks and not five. This is due to Blizzard explicitly implementing staggered tiers. I see this:

1: New 85, collecting gear to run dungeons. (A few days)
2: Running 5-man normals, collecting gear to run lowest tier heroics. (Less than 2 weeks)
3: Running lowest tier 5-man heroics, collecting JP. (Around 2 weeks)
4: Running yesterdays raids and/or current 5-man heroics, collecting VP. (End game for some, no time-limit)
5: Normal raider. (End game for most)
6: Hardmode raider. (End game)

My 'evidence' is the atrocious performance I see in the trolls from some people. I also tend to forget that this atrocious performance is usually perfectly enough for tier 1 five-man heroics. I'm aware that my 'evidence' is up-side down, because anything in 346+ gear should be able to perform at better than atrocious levels. However, I've tested (because I'm a masochist) a 346 troll run. While doable, let's just say we exploded a lot of times. It's perfectly comparable with the 329 runs a week after Cata was released.

I haven't been inside the three 'old' raids since 4.2, but I suspect they're actually easier than the trolls now. Anyone to confirm or dispute this?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Baharroth » Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:55 am

Just curious if last nights hotfix to the Pauldrons of Roaring Flame from Ragnaros will affect their ranking in the list of shoulders, and if it is worth the 4 set with this change.

Normal and Heroic versions of Pauldrons of Roaring Flame now have mastery rating instead of hit rating.

[Pauldrons of Roaring Flame]
[Pauldrons of Roaring Flame]

Sorry if this is being discussed elsewhere as I could not find it.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby boneyjellyfish » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:19 am

theckhd wrote:HotR Nova does not scale with spellpower at all. Many of our other abilities do (Judgement, Censure, AS, HoW, Cons, Holy Wrath, and of course WoG), but their spellpower coefficient is generally worse than their AP coefficient. As a result, Int/SP are really terrible threat stats, even for AoE.


Dang! I don't know where I heard that it did but I'm going to make sure to never make that error again. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:20 am

yappo wrote:Digren, I think I've identified a major difference in how we look at tank-ranks.

My belief is that from 4.2, and most likely throughout this expansion, we have six tanking ranks and not five. This is due to Blizzard explicitly implementing staggered tiers. I see this:

1: New 85, collecting gear to run dungeons. (A few days)
2: Running 5-man normals, collecting gear to run lowest tier heroics. (Less than 2 weeks)
3: Running lowest tier 5-man heroics, collecting JP. (Around 2 weeks)
4: Running yesterdays raids and/or current 5-man heroics, collecting VP. (End game for some, no time-limit)
5: Normal raider. (End game for most)
6: Hardmode raider. (End game)

My 'evidence' is the atrocious performance I see in the trolls from some people. I also tend to forget that this atrocious performance is usually perfectly enough for tier 1 five-man heroics. I'm aware that my 'evidence' is up-side down, because anything in 346+ gear should be able to perform at better than atrocious levels. However, I've tested (because I'm a masochist) a 346 troll run. While doable, let's just say we exploded a lot of times. It's perfectly comparable with the 329 runs a week after Cata was released.

I haven't been inside the three 'old' raids since 4.2, but I suspect they're actually easier than the trolls now. Anyone to confirm or dispute this?

Your new stage four is more of a branch though, not a progression 'stage', as it tends to cover only those who won't raid. It's something I've thought about, but I wasn't comfortable veering off there to create a separate category.

Instead I think in the short future that stage 2 will disappear. As soon as new 85s can get enough cheap gear to go right into heroics, then we won't need that stage. At the same time, maybe around then the differences between normal raiders and end-game nonraiders will be big enough and I'll split the stages, pushing heroics to stage two, end-game nonraiders to stage three, and normal raiders staying at four? It's just a thought.
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