4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sun May 01, 2011 3:39 pm

mfurie2540 wrote:Hi I have been reading your guide with much interest and has helped me a lot.
Can I ask why there is no mention of these two trinkets as I believe them to be much better than a lot of the ones you mention,they are Porcelain Crab (heroic) and Throngus's Finger (heroic)?
Also why no mention of the Elementium Earthguard shield when it's so easily obtainable on the Ah at a reasonable cost for stage two or three?
Keep up the awesome work on here :D

I intentionally exclude trinkets whose primary contribution is an avoidance stat. I don't see much value in them. They are on the whole worth less than any comparable mastery trinket as used in the same applications. In other words, in any case where you would like 252 (or whatever) of an avoidance rating as a way to increase your survivability, you would be better served with the same amount of mastery rating.

The shield is likely just an oversight. I'll look at it.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby mfurie2540 » Mon May 02, 2011 3:05 am

Hi
Thnx for your reply and now I understand mastery is the better stat to choose.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon May 02, 2011 10:51 am

Digren wrote:
mfurie2540 wrote:Hi I have been reading your guide with much interest and has helped me a lot.
Can I ask why there is no mention of these two trinkets as I believe them to be much better than a lot of the ones you mention,they are Porcelain Crab (heroic) and Throngus's Finger (heroic)?
Also why no mention of the Elementium Earthguard shield when it's so easily obtainable on the Ah at a reasonable cost for stage two or three?
Keep up the awesome work on here :D

I intentionally exclude trinkets whose primary contribution is an avoidance stat. I don't see much value in them. They are on the whole worth less than any comparable mastery trinket as used in the same applications. In other words, in any case where you would like 252 (or whatever) of an avoidance rating as a way to increase your survivability, you would be better served with the same amount of mastery rating.

The shield is likely just an oversight. I'll look at it.


I'd like to add something and say that I use the Porcelain Crab primarily for trash pulls instead of my Tia's Grace. Although the dodge isn't so great, the 1710 mastery for 20 seconds is pretty damn good for trash, and the ICD is usually up by the time I get to another trash pull.

Awful for fights that last significantly longer than 20-30 seconds, though.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Wed May 04, 2011 3:24 am

Stage three, you mention hit for interrupts. Should no longer be needed since 4.1. Still, I assume the list is once again a WiP as there are no drops from the troll-five-mans.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu May 05, 2011 1:03 pm

I have the new drops in my local spreadsheet. What I'm struggling with is an adjustment to the weightings of avoidance, mastery, and stamina so as to better stress mastery. I would still like to avoid using different stat weightings for people who want to farm heroics versus those who want to move into raids; if I do, I need two different lists of stage three gear fueled by two different formulas. (CTC-centered formula for stages 1, 2, and 3farm; MDR-centered formula for stages 3raid, 4, and 5. Then another CTC-centered formula for stage 5farm?)
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 06, 2011 12:46 am

Digren wrote:I have the new drops in my local spreadsheet. What I'm struggling with is an adjustment to the weightings of avoidance, mastery, and stamina so as to better stress mastery. I would still like to avoid using different stat weightings for people who want to farm heroics versus those who want to move into raids; if I do, I need two different lists of stage three gear fueled by two different formulas. (CTC-centered formula for stages 1, 2, and 3farm; MDR-centered formula for stages 3raid, 4, and 5. Then another CTC-centered formula for stage 5farm?)


Only need three types of gear honestly.

1) CTC (or rather long-time survival, cause max CTC isn't the best for this)
2) EH
3) Threat

People will have to do their own math for the threat-centric set. Hit to unmissable (against 87/boss, depending on farm-content) and expertise wherever available. Enchant for strength if you're 'capped' hit and expertise, and give that weapon Avalanche or Landslide. Should pretty much be it.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Doughman » Mon May 16, 2011 9:43 am

Hey Digren with Al'Akir having cloaks now including the permafrost ones will you be adding that into your list ..I've been waiting for all the dps to get the cloak of biting chill but If I can get my hands on a Rockslab one from Al'akir ..I havent compared the numbers but it seems those would be better over the agility counterpart.
Thanks for your time in this guide.

Dough

ps. I just remember reading about the cloaks from Treckie over in another post : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30399&start=90#p659840
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Tue May 24, 2011 11:20 pm

Doughman wrote:Hey Digren with Al'Akir having cloaks now including the permafrost ones will you be adding that into your list ..I've been waiting for all the dps to get the cloak of biting chill but If I can get my hands on a Rockslab one from Al'akir ..I havent compared the numbers but it seems those would be better over the agility counterpart.
Thanks for your time in this guide.

Dough

ps. I just remember reading about the cloaks from Treckie over in another post : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30399&start=90#p659840

Most all of the Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub gear is now in the list.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby DexterBelgium » Wed May 25, 2011 12:50 am

Epic, epic update man. Only the title needs to be updated now and we're completely shiny. Thanks for all the hard work on this.

One thing I'm quite blown away by, is the chests around level 3: so the tanking crafted is completely useless now? I upgraded to it from my JP chest, but I should go back or even have the Ret one crafted? Is there a post somewhere that explains that bombshell?

I always knew the old guide said "lack of gem slots means the crafted options suck" but now they do have a gem slot (bit lackluster tho), they suck even worse?

This is why I read this stuff: to learn.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Wed May 25, 2011 2:30 am

For some reason I had to view the image for tank level 5 to get it to show. "image" was in its place.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Lionizer » Wed May 25, 2011 7:45 am

So.. goodbye agility gear in 4.2 it seems. Will you be reworking the list to consider this change, or will you make a new 4.2 topic (or both)?

I think it would probably make most sense to close this thread and start a 4.2 one. I know it's a lot of work, but you know that we all greatly appreciate it <3
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed May 25, 2011 4:59 pm

lythac wrote:For some reason I had to view the image for tank level 5 to get it to show. "image" was in its place.

I dunno. All five are served from my web site, all in the exact same way. They should all be served for cross-site image requests equally.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed May 25, 2011 5:00 pm

Lionizer wrote:So.. goodbye agility gear in 4.2 it seems. Will you be reworking the list to consider this change, or will you make a new 4.2 topic (or both)?

I think it would probably make most sense to close this thread and start a 4.2 one. I know it's a lot of work, but you know that we all greatly appreciate it <3

I'll probably do what I did for 4.1, which is copy the list back into the thread and then start editing. I'd rather avoid new threads per expansion.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed May 25, 2011 5:10 pm

DexterBelgium wrote:One thing I'm quite blown away by, is the chests around level 3: so the tanking crafted is completely useless now? I upgraded to it from my JP chest, but I should go back or even have the Ret one crafted? Is there a post somewhere that explains that bombshell?

I gave up pushing MDR and switched my advice to CTC. This brutally punishes all avoidance/threat gear as it can't possibly match the combat table coverage of any piece that natively provides mastery rating.

By using the crafted chest, you take less damage than you did with the JP chest. However, you take spikier damage. And that makes some tanks and some healers sad.

On the other hand, if you aim for CTC, you get stupid stuff like an iLvl 346 chest that has a ton of mastery being ranked much higher than an iLvl 359 chest. This is why I avoided it in the first place. It's clearly not how Blizzard wants us to gear. But that said, despite all the big changes they've made in 4.2 PTR, they actually haven't fixed this. Actually they're making it worse, because they want to make sure mastery remains usable to us. By nerfing our avoidance in other ways, they make us want more mastery to block cap again, making us value CTC for longer.

I'm not sure I care at all for what they're doing. I'm just doing the math.

For the record, my rankings right now are based on:
1 stamina = 0.66 point
1 armor = 1/7 point
1 mastery rating = 1 point
1 dodge or parry rating = 0.36 point
1 strength = 0.2625*0.36 point
1 agility = 0.609*0.36 point

0.36 dodge rating = 1 mastery rating is right in the middle of the typical ratios for CTC as derived in the tabular avoidance/mastery thread. The armor to mastery ratio is based on Theck's derivation. Strength and agility conversion is based on in-game ratios. Stamina to mastery is based on the gem ratio, with 0.66 used instead of 0.67 to give mastery a tiny advantage.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Thu May 26, 2011 3:28 am

Using your weights and applying to gems - a single red socket with a +10 Mastery or +15sta bonus should be socketed with 40 mastery gem rather than 20 parry/20 Mastery (or 30 sta).

40 > 37.2 (20*0.36 + 20*1 + 10)

Wondering if a parry/dodge weight of 0.5 would be better which still leans heavily towards CTC but matches what most of us seem to be gemming.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Thu May 26, 2011 9:03 pm

lythac wrote:Using your weights and applying to gems - a single red socket with a +10 Mastery or +15sta bonus should be socketed with 40 mastery gem rather than 20 parry/20 Mastery (or 30 sta).

40 > 37.2 (20*0.36 + 20*1 + 10)

Wondering if a parry/dodge weight of 0.5 would be better which still leans heavily towards CTC but matches what most of us seem to be gemming.

40 mastery is more combat table coverage than 30 mastery and 20 parry. If you want CTC, don't half-ass it. Do it right. When you're block capped you can decide whether to push for more stamina, more avoidance, or more threat as a secondary goal.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 27, 2011 3:06 am

Digren wrote:40 mastery is more combat table coverage than 30 mastery and 20 parry. If you want CTC, don't half-ass it. Do it right. When you're block capped you can decide whether to push for more stamina, more avoidance, or more threat as a secondary goal.


Jumping in here.

Trends in suggested changes on PTR would devalue CTC compared with MDR. Most likely we'll need one CTC and one MDR set if the 10 sec out of 30 active CD for +20% BV Holy Shield goes live.

A 'magic' fight with a constant back-ground noice of incoming white damage will certainly favour MDR, whereas a fast-hitting physical fight with a spiky profile should favour CTC.

I'm also factoring in the overall reduction of CTC more or less explicitly stated as one of the incoming changes with 4.2.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Fri May 27, 2011 3:46 am

Digren wrote:
lythac wrote:Using your weights and applying to gems - a single red socket with a +10 Mastery or +15sta bonus should be socketed with 40 mastery gem rather than 20 parry/20 Mastery (or 30 sta).

40 > 37.2 (20*0.36 + 20*1 + 10)

Wondering if a parry/dodge weight of 0.5 would be better which still leans heavily towards CTC but matches what most of us seem to be gemming.

40 mastery is more combat table coverage than 30 mastery and 20 parry. If you want CTC, don't half-ass it. Do it right. When you're block capped you can decide whether to push for more stamina, more avoidance, or more threat as a secondary goal.


Yes 40 Mastery is more CTC than 30 Mastery and 20 Parry. But it goes against what you advise in your gem guide -

Match all socket bonuses when the bonus is 10 or more points of survivability or 15 or more points of stamina, or if a red gem is required to unlock a meta.
Mastery Heavy

Red Slot (with good bonus) : [Fine Ember Topaz] : +20 Parry Rating and +20 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting
Blue Slot (with good bonus) : [Puissant Dream Emerald] : +20 Mastery Rating and +30 Stamina : Jewelcrafting
Yellow or Colorless Slot (all*) : [Fractured Amberjewel] : +40 Mastery Rating : Jewelcrafting


Currently your gem guide and gear guide contradict each other for CTC/Mastery gearing/gemming. Maybe this would have been better to post in the gem guide.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 27, 2011 8:05 pm

Gem guide needs to be fixed, yeah. It's still based on a "let's be balanced and reasonable people because that has to be what Blizzard wants, right?" approach.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby boneyjellyfish » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:28 am

Heroic Ring of Rivalry no longer has any mastery on it and shouldn't be included in the ring section.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:40 pm

Fixed, thanks!
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Matthias » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:27 pm

I ended up using http://www.wowhead.com/item=56364 for my weapon and found it to be a bit better than Heroic Sun strike with the slightly higher mastery over hit rating. Not sure if it got overlooked or if there is a reason I am missing that makes it less desirable.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:52 pm

I just wanted to say this guide is superb, Digren. I've been following it from day one and the current presentation of the gear list is a work of art. Thanks!
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Biggby » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:35 am

Couple of specific questions. Came to the page 1 guide yesterday and was surprised to see some things had apparently changed. (I got distracted by PvP and lost track of my PvE gearing for a few weeks.) Didn't see my Unsolvable Riddle trinket at all (I'm working on Stage 3); saw my Ring of Three Lights was valued a few steps lower than the easily obtainable Red Rock Band; saw that I should take off my Sandguard Bracers and grab Terborus's Rotating Bands back out of my vault. But, then, on your Stage 3 guide on page 14, they are all reversed back to my original understanding. Which, honestly, makes more sense to me, but I want to be sure I'm not missing something. Thanks! I really appreciate the guide.
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Re: 4.1 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Aerron » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:40 am

Biggby wrote: Didn't see my Unsolvable Riddle trinket at all


That's the Agi one, right? (Impatience being the STR, iirc.) Probably taking it off the list in anticipation of the Agi changes in 4.2 (ie, no more Dodge from Agi so it's a useless stat for tanks.)
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