4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Marblehead » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:36 am

Digren wrote:Neck
    1. [Ironstar Amulet] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Atramedes
    2. [Don Rodrigo's Fabulous Necklace] : BoE Dungeon Drop
    3. [Necklace of Strife] : The Bastion of Twilight () Valiona
    4. [Rage of Ages] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Nefarian

    Digren says, "Unlike the normal version, the heroic Ironstar Amulet is best in class. That said, the Don supplied a close second choice for the rich and unlucky."

I don't understand the ranking here. I'll use Digren's methodology.

Code: Select all
                             Str    Sta    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)     163    322     215          109
Rage of Ages (Heroic)        215    322            143   143 


Stamina is the same. Subtracting strength.

Code: Select all
                             Str    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)             215          109
Rage of Ages (Heroic)         52            143   143 


Reforging dodge to mastery on Ironstar, cause it provides more CTC than reforging the hit, since hit is less than 55% of dodge. Reforging hit to dodge on Rage.

Code: Select all
                             Str    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)             129     86   109
Rage of Ages (Heroic)         52      57    143    86 


Subtracting common values. Converting strength to parry to dodge. Discarding hit as irrelevant with survivability.

Code: Select all
                             Dodge   Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)       72       
Rage of Ages (Heroic)          13     57 


Subtracting again.

Code: Select all
                             Dodge   Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)       59       
Rage of Ages (Heroic)                 57 


Using Digren's assumptions, it should take around 45 mastery rating to equal the damage reduction potential of 59 dodge rating for heroic raiders.

Code: Select all
                             Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)      45 ish 
Rage of Ages (Heroic)         57 


As I see it, Rage of Ages is better than Ironstar Amulet, yet they rank 4th and 1st respectively. Am I missing something here?
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby inthedrops » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:28 pm

Probably the reforge of dodge to mastery is the issue. Here's a breakdown converting the hit on the Ironstar Amulet into mastery instead of the dodge.

Note: I'm totally not a math person so check my work.

Code: Select all
                             Str    Sta    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)     163    322     215          109
Rage of Ages (Heroic)        215    322            143   143 
------------------------------------------------------------
                             Str    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)             215          109
Rage of Ages (Heroic)         52            143   143
------------------------------------------------------------
                             Str    Dodge   Mas   Hit   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)             215     44    65
Rage of Ages (Heroic)         52      57    143    86 
------------------------------------------------------------
                             Dodge   Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)       158           
Rage of Ages (Heroic)           13    99 
------------------------------------------------------------
                             Dodge   Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)       145           
Rage of Ages (Heroic)                 99
------------------------------------------------------------
                             Dodge   Mas   
Ironstar Amulet (Heroic)              110 ish           
Rage of Ages (Heroic)                 99
------------------------------------------------------------


If this is correct, then I'm going to remember this as an argument to a huge pet peeve I have with tanks ignoring avoidance for "Combat Table Coverage".
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Treck » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:43 pm

Digren wrote:Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

T11.5 gear requires an Essence of the Forlorn token, which is used to buy a slot-specific token from the Valorous quartermaster.

Essence of the Forlorn only drops from alakir, and can be used to buy the t11 372 parts (all 5)
Legs/Gloves/chest/Head/shoulders are all specific tokendrops that drop from the same bosses each week, where the legs/gloves/chest require the lower lvl tier part to allready have been obtained (this goes even if your using an Essence of the Forlorn), while head/shoulders doesnt require you to have them.
(Drops from Maloriak, Magmaw, Halfus, Nefarian and Chogall, in that order)


Digren wrote:
    Head
      1. [Daybreak Helm] : Bastion of Twilight (Heroic) Valonia
      2. [Dragon Bone Warhelm] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak

      Digren says, "Like its normal cousin, the heroic tier helm wastes too much itemization in threat to top a list of survival gear. After a buff in 4.0.6 the Daybreak Helm is clearly best in slot."

0.8% avoidance vs 1% block, sure its a win, but clearly? I wouldnt say so.


Digren wrote:Neck
    1. [Ironstar Amulet] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Atramedes

    Digren says, "Unlike the normal version, the heroic Ironstar Amulet is best in class. That said, the Don supplied a close second choice for the rich and unlucky."

Your forgetting [Caekestraz's Will] Clearly BiS. Think its BiS for most str dps classes aswell.

Digren wrote:Feet
    1. [Molten Tantrum Boots] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Magmaw
    2. [Gryphon Rider's Boots] / [Boots of Sullen Rock] : Wildhammer Clan / Dragonmaw Clan (Exalted)

    Digren says, "Only one set beat the durable faction boots"

What about these 2 then?
[War-Torn Crushers]
[Massacre Threads]
War-Torn is BiS, and Massacre is worth atleast a spot next to Gryphon Riders.


Digren wrote:Weapon
Survivability
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak
Threat
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : ?Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak
Mixed Survivability / Threat
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak

Fix't

All in all i think your valuing stamina to low.
Sta might not make you take less dmg, but it will make you survive most shit better than going all out for mastery.
166k hp is sometimes to low for comfort in heroic raids imo.
Taking as little damage as possible might be more of an approach if your doing hardmodes months behind everyone else, but when your faced with a new boss you have no clue about, sta is imo the best way to make sure you survive as long as possible.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Marblehead » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:32 pm

inthedrops wrote:If this is correct, then I'm going to remember this as an argument to a huge pet peeve I have with tanks ignoring avoidance for "Combat Table Coverage".

You're correct. I see it now. While Rage of Ages provides more CTC, Ironstar Amulet provides more damage reduction if reforged from hit to mastery.

However, this raises the question of whether going for more damage reduction is more efficient than getting block capped, thus normalizing damage intake. I don't know if this is an appropriate thread to discuss that though, and probably both sides of the argument have many supporters which comes down to a matter of personal preference, like the stamina vs. mastery debate.
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Digren » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:16 pm

Marblehead wrote:Reforging dodge to mastery on Ironstar, cause it provides more CTC than reforging the hit, since hit is less than 55% of dodge.
As I see it, Rage of Ages is better than Ironstar Amulet, yet they rank 4th and 1st respectively. Am I missing something here?

My ratings are for maximum damage reduction, not combat table coverage. Always convert the threat stat. That switches the order.
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Digren » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:34 pm

Treck wrote:
Digren wrote:[1. [Daybreak Helm] : Bastion of Twilight (Heroic) Valonia
2. [Dragon Bone Warhelm] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak

Digren says, "Like its normal cousin, the heroic tier helm wastes too much itemization in threat to top a list of survival gear. After a buff in 4.0.6 the Daybreak Helm is clearly best in slot."

0.8% avoidance vs 1% block, sure its a win, but clearly? I wouldnt say so.

I see them as:
Code: Select all
Item                          Armor   Strength   Stamina   Parry   Expertise    Mastery
Daybreak Helm (Heroic)        2891    325        653       257                  247
Dragon Bone Warhelm (Heroic)  2891    293        698       20      81           379

including non-meta gems, gem bonuses, and reforging.

Wiping common stats, converting extra strength to parry, dropping value-less threat:
Code: Select all
Item                          Stamina   Parry   Mastery
Daybreak Helm (Heroic)                  245                 
Dragon Bone Warhelm (Heroic)  45                132

Previously the two were tied, and my comment reflected that. The 4.0.6 buff made one of them measurably better so I updated the ranking. I agree, though, that the difference between first and second in this slot remains smaller than in other slots. I'll adjust the comment.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:42 pm

Marblehead wrote:
inthedrops wrote:If this is correct, then I'm going to remember this as an argument to a huge pet peeve I have with tanks ignoring avoidance for "Combat Table Coverage".

You're correct. I see it now. While Rage of Ages provides more CTC, Ironstar Amulet provides more damage reduction if reforged from hit to mastery.

However, this raises the question of whether going for more damage reduction is more efficient than getting block capped, thus normalizing damage intake. I don't know if this is an appropriate thread to discuss that though, and probably both sides of the argument have many supporters which comes down to a matter of personal preference, like the stamina vs. mastery debate.

Personally, I'd love to see a block cap set. I tried to build one in Chardev yesterday and just couldn't do it. Please take a look at my stage five model and suggest changes. What unbuffed ctc is needed to hit the cap?

The rankings use a consistent formula for gear from stage 1 through 5. However, if stage five players have a completely different ranking method due to the ability to block cap, I can accommodate that. (Though, to be honest, almost no one ever comments on my end-game gear rankings. I usually assume this is because most people wearing heroic gear can figure out what they want to wear without the help of a guide, so my guide goes mostly unread.)

I think Vexryn's gear list is based on CTC over MDR. He certainly has some things ranked differently, including these neck items. So both options are available in guide form. :D
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Digren » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:49 pm

Treck wrote:
Digren wrote:Neck
    1. [Ironstar Amulet] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Atramedes

    Digren says, "Unlike the normal version, the heroic Ironstar Amulet is best in class. That said, the Don supplied a close second choice for the rich and unlucky."

Your forgetting [Caekestraz's Will] Clearly BiS. Think its BiS for most str dps classes aswell.

Digren wrote:Feet
    1. [Molten Tantrum Boots] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Magmaw
    2. [Gryphon Rider's Boots] / [Boots of Sullen Rock] : Wildhammer Clan / Dragonmaw Clan (Exalted)

    Digren says, "Only one set beat the durable faction boots"

What about these 2 then?
[War-Torn Crushers]
[Massacre Threads]
War-Torn is BiS, and Massacre is worth atleast a spot next to Gryphon Riders.


Digren wrote:Weapon
Survivability
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak
Threat
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : ?Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak
Mixed Survivability / Threat
    [Mace of Acrid Death] : Blackwing Descent (Heroic) Maloriak
[/list]

Fix't


Looks like I have some missing stuff to include. I'll get them in there. Thanks!

All in all i think your valuing stamina to low.
Sta might not make you take less dmg, but it will make you survive most shit better than going all out for mastery.
166k hp is sometimes to low for comfort in heroic raids imo.
Taking as little damage as possible might be more of an approach if your doing hardmodes months behind everyone else, but when your faced with a new boss you have no clue about, sta is imo the best way to make sure you survive as long as possible.

This is a good point. A lot of the consensus on Maintankadin has been that mastery is way better than stamina. This is even stronger on Tankspot. There, the recommendations are for paladins to use pure mastery gems in yellow slots, mastery/sta in blue, and parry/mastery in red.

I don't go that deeply into mastery. I think you'll find that my guide values stamina more than the other guides here. That's because I use mastery/sta gems in both blue and yellow slots, and parry/stamina in red. Value wise, I rate one point of stamina as the equivalent to 0.7 points of mastery. Does that still leave stamina too low? Maybe. A recent thread here noted that a lot of end game tanks are very heavy into stamina, much moreso than was predicted given the theory calculations.

On the other hand, the posts just above your were discussing how I rank mastery too low, because my guide doesn't recommend people reach the block cap. Do you aim for the block cap as a way to ensure damage reduction? Why did you pick stamina stacking over that?

I'm obviously not an end-game tank. I'm just willing to maintain a guide. :) I'd like to hear more opinions about this from heroic raiders to see where they stand.

Thanks!
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Digren » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:55 pm

Treck wrote:166k hp is sometimes to low for comfort in heroic raids imo.
Taking as little damage as possible might be more of an approach if your doing hardmodes months behind everyone else, but when your faced with a new boss you have no clue about, sta is imo the best way to make sure you survive as long as possible.

For a point of comparison, I see that your (actual, not model) stamina is 177k and your combat table coverage is about 87.6% unbuffed. From that to my model (166k, 92.2%) is as little as a single trinket swap, so really I don't think our models are all that different. If you have a model that points out your end-game goals, I'd love to look at it.

Thanks!
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Treck » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:49 am

Digren wrote:Do you aim for the block cap as a way to ensure damage reduction? Why did you pick stamina stacking over that?

While block capping is awesome for reducing dmg taken, i dont find it all that neccesary to mindlessly stack for.
During our progression the healers noticed that pure mastery gemming was a bit more unpredictable when healing (due to aoe effects leaving you lower than otherwise).
They mainly wanted a bigger buffert to heal, rather than me taking less dmg.
Its not ofthen your not topped up still pretty fast as a tank, and while healers might leave you hanging on about 70% or so when they are conserving mana, they still want 70% to be as high as possible.
Block capping yourself would make you a pretty easy target to heal on bosses that do exclusivly meele hits, but even without blockcapping, you wouldnt be that hard to heal eather.
Theres been few tankdeaths that i can remember that have only been hit after hit after hit, without a dangerous other component.

This was done before progress was over, and with a lot less gear than i currently have, im could try next reset with all out mastery and see if my healers like it or not.

This has a lot to do with the healers, and obviously every healingteam is not the same, making "my" way of gearing less attractive to some others with different healers.
And i wouldnt be suprised if block capping might be a lot higher prio in 10man than 25man, since those healing teams are a lot different in different sizes.

Also keep in mind, Gearing isnt really doesnt make that much of a differance these days imo.
You can survive very well with pretty much whatever your using, gear is of pretty low prio for tanks as of now (we gave dpsers and healers prio on gear over tanks, and tanks basicly took up whatever was left for us since their gear mattered a lot more on their performance than ours did)
If you die, most times its cuz of you lacking a CD, with that CD, you might have survived, but without it, it wouldnt really matter if your stacking stamina or mastery, you would most likely be dead in any case.


Digren wrote:
Treck wrote:166k hp is sometimes to low for comfort in heroic raids imo.
Taking as little damage as possible might be more of an approach if your doing hardmodes months behind everyone else, but when your faced with a new boss you have no clue about, sta is imo the best way to make sure you survive as long as possible.

For a point of comparison, I see that your (actual, not model) stamina is 177k and your combat table coverage is about 87.6% unbuffed. From that to my model (166k, 92.2%) is as little as a single trinket swap, so really I don't think our models are all that different. If you have a model that points out your end-game goals, I'd love to look at it.

Thanks!

Id love to hear some comments from the other endgame tanks aswell, but during progress we all keep to ourselves xD

Actually, i dont useually run with the baradin hold trinket.
For 9/13 bosses i run with the Valiona trinket, giving me about 187k hp with CTC of 83%ish.
And obviously the BH trinket is nice with its mastery, but even without all that mastery id still use it over any other trinket for the last remaining fights, beeing Alakir, Nefarian, Chogall and Sinestra, just cuz of the nature of those fights.
That trinket ensures survival on those fights like no other trinket
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Gaxby » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:33 am

Treck wrote:While block capping is awesome for reducing dmg taken, i dont find it all that neccesary to mindlessly stack for.
During our progression the healers noticed that pure mastery gemming was a bit more unpredictable when healing (due to aoe effects leaving you lower than otherwise).
They mainly wanted a bigger buffert to heal, rather than me taking less dmg.
Its not ofthen your not topped up still pretty fast as a tank, and while healers might leave you hanging on about 70% or so when they are conserving mana, they still want 70% to be as high as possible.
Block capping yourself would make you a pretty easy target to heal on bosses that do exclusivly meele hits, but even without blockcapping, you wouldnt be that hard to heal eather.
Theres been few tankdeaths that i can remember that have only been hit after hit after hit, without a dangerous other component.


^ This. I should just link this quote every time someone in my guild bitch at me for being a "mana sponge", Mr. Treckie sir. 8)

Treck wrote:Id love to hear some comments from the other endgame tanks aswell, but during progress we all keep to ourselves xD


Hey, is Lazeil from Paragon as cool as you? You two ever talked before? :D
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Re: Tank Stage 5: Heroic Raider

Postby Treck » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:22 am

Gaxby wrote:
Treck wrote:Id love to hear some comments from the other endgame tanks aswell, but during progress we all keep to ourselves xD


Hey, is Lazeil from Paragon as cool as you? You two ever talked before? :D

Ive never talked to him.
But hes obviously not as cool as me since he doesnt hang around on MTadin :P
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby inthedrops » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:20 pm

I think the lesson to be learned from Treckie is to communicate with your healers and work with them, rather than strictly adhering to theorycraft, spreadsheets, matlab, etc.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Kihra » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:34 pm

I think speed of progression has much to do with how you value Mastery vs. Stamina. For top progressing guilds that have to rip through the content with a tank that only has 1-3 372 pieces that happened to drop from 1st kills, switching to Mastery over Stamina when in mostly 359 gear would put you dangerously low on health.

It's a bit different I think for tanks in guilds that progress more slowly. You repeat the HM kills over and over as you slowly progress, so tanks are way more geared the first time they step into a hard mode than the tanks in top progressed guilds were. This sort of tank can cut over to Mastery without too much trouble, since the amount of Stamina on all the 372 pieces is more than enough to survive.

I've gone back and forth between Mastery gemming and Stamina gemming, and I honestly can't tell much of a difference. I don't tend to fall over dead with either model. If I die it has more to do with botched execution (e.g., not using a CD at the right time, etc.) than with any Mastery vs. Stamina issue.
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Re: 4.0.6 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby 99sitr » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:06 pm

I have somewhat stuck to the middle of the road on this ATM for our stage in raiding, just starting work on HM encounters, I have I think 2 pure mastery gems the rest are hybrids. Last night in 10m I set at just over 177k hp with 92.08% CTC. Sadly enough feud tanking on H Chimaeron still found my uncovered 10% CTC and hit me through it continuously.

Digren I used your guide and made changes as pieces dropped, along with communicating with my healers it has been a positive experience for us. We don't wipe to tank deaths hardly ever, usually dps deaths due to mechanics missed. This is my masked thank you :P


Also would anyone here trade 213 stam for 2% CTC via block?
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